Weaver is not an ace anymore

[NrM]

The worse this team gets, the lower the board IQ gets.

 

Play better Angels and fight illiteracy.

Yep the people who aren't blind homers are the idiots.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Poozy

[Taylor]

Weaver is more of a Number 3.6 pitcher after these first two starts.

[ABC]

Yep the people who aren't blind homers are the idiots.

 

This thread has been eating at you for a year?

[Stradling]

Yep the people who aren't blind homers are the idiots.

Because back in August when he said that Weaver looked like this. Nice bump poozy.

[NrM]

Because back in August when he said that Weaver looked like this. Nice bump poozy.

 

 

He looks exactly the same.

Thanks bro.

[Brandon]

Was Washburn an Ace?

 

 

It's always been up for debate whether it was Washburn or Ramon Ortiz.

[disarcina]

early in the season yet -- two starts -- c'mon.

[wopphil]

I just read the last five pages of this thread for the first time. I am surprised so many people got so butt hurt about Poozy's and YOT's comments, because I thought their comments were pretty objective and fair. And now, it is looking like they were dead on accurate.

I hope Weaver can pick up the velocity a bit because he is one of my favorite players, but I am very concerned about what i am seeing.

[ten ocho recon scout]

^yep

I dont think either was saying weaver is no longer a good pitcher. (Even with his start today, he still is). But he, like anyone else, is gonna age. Hes going to decline. (He already has).

I think its obvious we're going to have to get another SP next season. Just as if we had assumed vlad, or salmon or anyone else would continue to be MOTO hitters. It doesnt work that way.

[Amazing Larry]

^yep

I dont think either was saying weaver is no longer a good pitcher. (Even with his start today, he still is). But he, like anyone else, is gonna age. Hes going to decline. (He already has).

I think its obvious we're going to have to get another SP next season. Just as if we had assumed vlad, or salmon or anyone else would continue to be MOTO hitters. It doesnt work that way.

Scherzer.

Thanks Arte!

[Tyler]

I wouldn't even offer Scherzer what he turned down from the Tigers.

[mtangelsfan]

two starts, lol.

[YouthofToday]

Although 2 games is clearly a small sample size .... To be honest I don't think Weaver is even a top 20 pitcher in the AL in 2014.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wilson, Richards and Skaggs have better road peripheral numbers this year.

[Docwaukee]

A lot of pitchers are better than Weaver on the road.  He's always used the confines of Angel stadium to his advantage.  Last year alone, Wilson, Vargas and Richards (in limited numbers) had better road peripherals.  Weaver actually pitches to his peripherals on the road.  It's not saying anything that most don't already know. 

 

It's also funny that the last post in that thread until today was Aug 19th yet somehow it's been glossed over that in his starts from that point till the end of the year he posted a 2.25 era throwing at the same velocity he threw today.  Yet he has one start where he gets knocked around some and this thread gets resurrected. 

 

He had a 3.27 era last year with a few starts where he did exactly what he did today. 

 

I guess I just don't understand the argument and the point of designating him to a certain spot in a rotation for our team vs. other teams.  Yes, he's declining .  Yes, we will need more pitching going forward.  Yes, we all recognize he's not as good as he used to be.

 

Do we think we are pointing out something revolutionary to the front office by classifying him differently?  Oh, the fans have realized that Jered isn't an ace so we should go out and get more pitching now. 

 

I am just unclear as to what this satisfies.

[Ray McKigney]

Velocity isn't that important with Weaver. It's all about location. When he misses his spots he's going to get hammered. Simple as that. If that continues into the next couple of starts then I'll be concerned. Until then... kick back, relax, and have some chips and dip. 

Edited April 7, 2014 by Ray McKigney

[NrM]

A lot of pitchers are better than Weaver on the road. He's always used the confines of Angel stadium to his advantage. Last year alone, Wilson, Vargas and Richards (in limited numbers) had better road peripherals. Weaver actually pitches to his peripherals on the road. It's not saying anything that most don't already know.

It's also funny that the last post in that thread until today was Aug 19th yet somehow it's been glossed over that in his starts from that point till the end of the year he posted a 2.25 era throwing at the same velocity he threw today. Yet he has one start where he gets knocked around some and this thread gets resurrected.

He had a 3.27 era last year with a few starts where he did exactly what he did today.

I guess I just don't understand the argument and the point of designating him to a certain spot in a rotation for our team vs. other teams. Yes, he's declining . Yes, we will need more pitching going forward. Yes, we all recognize he's not as good as he used to be.

Do we think we are pointing out something revolutionary to the front office by classifying him differently? Oh, the fans have realized that Jered isn't an ace so we should go out and get more pitching now.

I am just unclear as to what this satisfies.

all i'm saying is weaver isnt as dominating as he once was and that definately hurts the angels.

[Brent Maguire]

Velocity isn't that important with Weaver. It's all about location. When he misses his spots he's going to get hammered. Simple as that. If that continues into that next couple of starts then I'll be concerned. Until then... kick back, relax, and have some chips and dip. 

Yup. I think he can be a mid 3's ERA guy still. Not an ace but I don't think he declines super quickly. 

[Docwaukee]

all i'm saying is weaver isnt as dominating as he once was and that definately hurts the angels.

of course he's not and of course that hurts but the arbitrary designation of him being an ace is the title of this thread and I am saying that said designation changes nothing about him or whether the Angels will succeed. 

 

it's akin to arguing whether Trout is the best player in the game.  Convincing someone one way or another doesn't change his performance. 

[Mark68]

I said it before the season started, and I'll reiterate:

 

 

Skaggs will be our best pitcher this year.

[Mark68]

Here's the thing:

 

An "ace" is someone who can count on a certain pitch to get an out when he absolutely has to. For most "aces", it's a ridiculous fastball, for some, it's a wipeout slider, for others, it's an extreme yakker.

 

Weaver has none of these. He relies on deception and pinpoint control. When you hear scouts or other talent evaluators talk about prospects' future projections, they talk about pitchers who rely on deception and pinpoint control, and put labels on them like "#3 or #4" starter. 

 

As for pitchers I would rather have than Weaver, right now, that list includes King Felix, Verlander, Scherzer, Strasburg, Bumgarner, Kershaw, Lee, Cole, Latos, Price, Jarrod Parker (when he gets back), Ryu, Iwakuma, Tanaka, Yu, Sale, Jose Fernandez, and Wheeler. Last year, I would have added Harvey to that list (and probably next year as well, along with Archie Bradley and Jon Gray--although that might not happen until 2016).

 

Weaver is not an "ace", he just happens to be our #1 (there is a difference), but that may no longer be true, either.

 

This is not a knock on Weaver at all. He has certainly done his job over the years, but with someone who never had much velocity to begin with, any decline in that aspect of his game is going to narrow the margin of error significantly, We may be seeing the results of that now.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Mark68

[ten ocho recon scout]

Good post mark (and doc)

I think some are getting the wromg impression by what some are saying. Weaver is slowing down, not just velocity wise, but career wise. Hes still going to solid. Hes still going to have more good starts than bad.

But hes (IMO) moved from being a front / top 10 pitcher to more of a john lackey type. Still a good pitcher who is capable of being great any given start, but not on the same level as one of the true top pitchers mentioned above. Same as cliff lee is no longer the guy he was a few years ago. Lole I mentioned lackey above, a younger weaver replaced lackey as lackey aged. Its natural. Some day mike trout will be albert pujols....

[ukyah]

Good post mark (and doc)

I think some are getting the wromg impression by what some are saying. Weaver is slowing down, not just velocity wise, but career wise. Hes still going to solid. Hes still going to have more good starts than bad.

But hes (IMO) moved from being a front / top 10 pitcher to more of a john lackey type. Still a good pitcher who is capable of being great any given start, but not on the same level as one of the true top pitchers mentioned above. Same as cliff lee is no longer the guy he was a few years ago. Lole I mentioned lackey above, a younger weaver replaced lackey as lackey aged. Its natural. Some day mike trout will be albert pujols....

 

 

you shut your goddamned whore mouth.

[Jason]

you shut your goddamned whore mouth.

He's referring to the pre-Angel Pujols.

[Angelfan79]

Lol can we give it a couple more games before we start this?

[Angel Oracle]

Scherzer.

Thanks Arte!

Or even plan B, Justin Masterson