The jury's in on Perry Minasian

[Jay]

IMO Minasian gets an F. This team is shit and there's no sign that it's trending in a positive direction.

[Angelsfan1984]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

IMO Minasian gets an F. This team is shit and there's no sign that it's trending in a positive direction.

You’re right, outside of trout and ohtani the lineup has absolutely nothing going for it. I’m surprised they don’t just forfeit every game. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

12 hours ago, samwum said:

I appreciate where you're coming from, but players don't gain value while they lose team control and get paid higher salaries.

That's true, but there are other factors as well.

In the case of Anderson, a team looking at someone to win a few big games in October might not be that excited about him, but a team in the winter looking to fill 160 innings after losing a couple starters to free agency might see $13M as a pretty good value.

In the case of Ward, he's having his worst season of the last three at the moment, and he had been particularly bad over the last month. If he finishes this year strong and/or starts next year strong, he's going to be worth more. A good Taylor Ward with 2 or 1.5 years of control is going to be worth more than a bad Ward with 2.5 years of control. (And if you think his current slump is what he really is and he's not going to get any better, that doesn't say much for his value then either.)

Rengifo's wrist injury was probably a red flag to teams right now. But over the winter, or even next year at the deadline, he could be worth more.

[totdprods]

And a year from now, or even this winter, it might be easier to part with Anderson, Ward or Rengifo if guys like Adell, Moniak, Moore, any two SP prospects or a minor league surprise like Lugo, Adams, Kavadas, Paris or Stefanic have a great next couples of months. 

[BTH]

39 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

That's true, but there are other factors as well.

In the case of Anderson, a team looking at someone to win a few big games in October might not be that excited about him, but a team in the winter looking to fill 160 innings after losing a couple starters to free agency might see $13M as a pretty good value.

In the case of Ward, he's having his worst season of the last three at the moment, and he had been particularly bad over the last month. If he finishes this year strong and/or starts next year strong, he's going to be worth more. A good Taylor Ward with 2 or 1.5 years of control is going to be worth more than a bad Ward with 2.5 years of control. (And if you think his current slump is what he really is and he's not going to get any better, that doesn't say much for his value then either.)

Rengifo's wrist injury was probably a red flag to teams right now. But over the winter, or even next year at the deadline, he could be worth more.

Good points, but are the Angels really going to trade any of those players this winter?

They rarely sell MLB contributors with control at the deadline, and they hardly every do it during the offseason.

Part of the feeling of missed opportunity is that I don’t think the Angels are going to trade any of those guys in the offseason, even if their value is similar or higher.

[totdprods]

2 minutes ago, BTH said:

Good points, but are the Angels really going to trade any of those players this winter?

They rarely sell MLB contributors with control at the deadline, and they hardly every do it during the offseason.

Part of the feeling of missed opportunity is that I don’t think the Angels are going to trade any of those guys in the offseason, even if their value is similar or higher.

As with most everything right now - it depends. I think people are taking Ron and Perry and Arte (if he’s said anything) too seriously when they make statements about competing. They are clearly rebuilding, or at least trying to retool/reset, while trying to not tank. Why they aren’t more transparent in that I have no idea. Maybe they don’t want to put a timeline on things, maybe they don’t want to spook casual fans, maybe they don’t want to lower expectations for young players. 

It’s been hard for the Angels to part with controlled players in trade sells because they’ve always been trying to compete for Trout/Ohtani. They say that still, but I’m not buying it. They haven’t made any ‘buy’ moves since last deadline. 

This winter could be different. Could have a new GM. Heck, could even have a surprise new owner. Arte could spend, Arte might not. The one thing that is different though, without a doubt, is the team. There are good young players here now, and a couple more hitting soon in Moore and Dana at a minimum, with quite a few others potentially not far behind. They might actually have some young talent they can replace these guys with - but they aren’t there yet.

[tdawg87]

Reagins, Dipoto, Eppler, Minasian.

Scioscia, Ausmus, Nevin, Maddon, Washington???

A lot of management to go through in 13 years. In the last decade it's been 3 GM's and 5 managers. 

I suppose Minasian could be back next year, but the point remains. 

If you run into an asshole in the morning etc...

[Duren, Duren]

The first part of Perry's tenure was trying to win/make the playoffs during the Trout/Ohtani window. He must have known that Ohtani resigning was a long shot and only a winning environment would help those odds. And the signs of Trout slipping from his prime were also becoming more evident. 

One also assumes that Arte was directly or indirectly prioritizing the 'win now' approach. That imploded dramatically last deadline. 

Perry since then has been forced to take a rebuild approach. Whatever degree it takes. Complete or partial. 

One would assume that a pro active GM would embrace a rebuild. It's the best opportunity to build a reputation and have the satisfaction of building something from nothing. Given that he has enough time, decent  resources and agreement from ownership. 

Maybe this is where Perry really becomes his own man. Hopefully without Arte still constraining him. No more Ohtani hostage situation looming.

The injuries to Trout and Rendon can be seen as positives in allowing a deeper assessment others on the roster. It also means losing more games in theory. But this situation wasn't intentionally devised. 

I'm perfectly content to watch the next couple of years as a work in progress. Enjoying the growth (hopefully) of the young core and cheering for them as underdogs most games. It will still be a hit or miss process. Not every younger player will succeed. But a focus on acquiring good prospects with good development in the system will pay off eventually. 

I think that's where Perry can make a name for himself. Turning the page from his early years, if Arte is on board that is. 

[BTH]

39 minutes ago, totdprods said:

As with most everything right now - it depends. I think people are taking Ron and Perry and Arte (if he’s said anything) too seriously when they make statements about competing. They are clearly rebuilding, or at least trying to retool/reset,

You say that, but they haven’t shown that with their actions like other teams have.

Rebuilding teams trade away players with control. The Angels have not done that.

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

maybe they don’t want to lower expectations for young players. 

I don’t think guys like O’Hoppe and Neto want to hear the GM say “yeah we don’t think we can win next year.”

[totdprods]

1 hour ago, BTH said:

You say that, but they haven’t shown that with their actions like other teams have.

Rebuilding teams trade away players with control. The Angels have not done that.

Read the rest of my post that you clipped out when you quoted.

They’re obviously trying to walk the fine line of rebuilding while not tanking. I think once they get to a place where they can trade controlled players away and have an internal replacement lined up they will, but the Dipoto and Eppler farms have not allowed that.

And as a fan, I kinda appreciate that. I don’t think you need to tank to build a good farm. Plenty of teams haven’t, and as much as it sucks watching the Angels lose 80-90 games every year, at least there’s a few moments of hope, rather than the shit the White Sox or A’s go through. Losing 100+ games annually for consecutive years sounds absolutely dreadful to endure and a good way to kill a fanbase. Those are the worst and greediest owners. Arte’s just misguided and delusional, at worst.

Edited August 1 by totdprods

[totdprods]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

Reagins, Dipoto, Eppler, Minasian.

Scioscia, Ausmus, Nevin, Maddon, Washington???

A lot of management to go through in 13 years. In the last decade it's been 3 GM's and 5 managers. 

I suppose Minasian could be back next year, but the point remains. 

If you run into an asshole in the morning etc...

I think the lack of continuity can be disruptive. I’m not crazy about all of Perry’s work, but it’s getting hard to argue against what he’s done bringing in good young talent (soft rebuild), which IMO should still be the objective for one more year. He fits the objective. We will have a top draft pick, we will have another opportunity to sell arb. guys this winter or next deadline. He does those two things well (when allowed, if that’s been the limiter) and we need them done well in 2025 if we want to see the team be competitive 2026 and beyond. 

There are a lot of things going on right now that have piqued my interest. Some more obvious than others.

• The development of Neto, Schanuel, O’Hoppe, primarily. We haven’t had multiple players come up and show this much so quickly in nearly 20 years, and if this repeatable with Moore, Joyce, Cortez, Fontenelle…it will be the best solution to the org’s problems over the last 20 years; developing homegrown talent.
• The international signings; I really think we have something starting with Lugo, De Jesus, Lara, Soto, De La Rosa, Scull, Rada. There has been more across-the-board improvement in our international signings in the last year or two than any point I can remember over again the last 20 years. This one will take time to test if true, but it is looking good. Guys like Placencia, Guzman, Vera, even going back to Suarez and Barria, were rushed. It took needed development away and then they had to learn how to try and make adjustments when they were literally out of their league. Perry has been much more conservative with the recent classes of signings. This could again be a solution to a multi-decade problem.
• Adjustments; I cannot remember the last time I saw this many players, minors or majors, have clear-cut good/bad portions of their seasons. I have nothing to back this up but my hope is that there is finally some sort of data/analytics or coaching and development strategy that has not only started offering real information for them to make improvements, but it’s actually been digestible and teachable and had player buy-in. 
• Culture; Ron Washington (and his coaches) despite whatever questionable moves he makes on-field, seems to undoubtedly be having an impact on the young players. They seem so much more confident and well-suited and prepared than Ward, Adell, Thaiss, Sandoval, or Canning or other youngsters from the last decade ever were. 

Given how dysfunctional this organization is, I’ve always wondered why we’re so quick to cut hair with GMs. Does anyone really think they’re going to fix all of the Angels problems in two years? You’re dealing with players selected by two different FOs ahead of you, the contracts they’ve signed, the decisions they made…and that’s not even taking into account the state of the Angels farm facilities, scouting staff, data staff, budget limitations, etc. To undo that will not happen overnight, especially if we keep hiring first time GMs. I don’t know if any of the things I said above are actually happening, or if Perry is actually the one who deserves credit, or if he should be retained or if he even wants to be retained, but I do see enough happening big that I’m becoming increasingly hesitant to part ways with him simply because of any of that stuff above IS working - then we will be in a much better place by 2026. And I think it might be worth gambling another year to see if that pans out.

[Stradling]

3 hours ago, BTH said:

Good points, but are the Angels really going to trade any of those players this winter?

They rarely sell MLB contributors with control at the deadline, and they hardly every do it during the offseason.

Part of the feeling of missed opportunity is that I don’t think the Angels are going to trade any of those guys in the offseason, even if their value is similar or higher.

If there value is higher then they might, if it is similar then they probably won’t, nor should they.  

[Halo in Chicago]

He looked and sounded like he was about to cry talking about Trout on the pre-game. Not sure what to make of that. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

23 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Every year we are treated to a worse team but a better set of excuses. 

6 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I don’t think guys like O’Hoppe and Neto want to hear the GM say “yeah we don’t think we can win next year.”

Maybe I should've said worse excuses...

[Jeff Fletcher]

10 hours ago, BTH said:

Good points, but are the Angels really going to trade any of those players this winter?

They rarely sell MLB contributors with control at the deadline, and they hardly every do it during the offseason.

Part of the feeling of missed opportunity is that I don’t think the Angels are going to trade any of those guys in the offseason, even if their value is similar or higher.

Will they trade them? I have no idea. I’m sure they’ll listen. 
 

After talking to Perry, I am convinced that he was hoping to get the kind of prospects you guys all wanted for those guys, but the offers weren’t there. It was not that he wanted to keep them. He seemed as frustrated as you all were. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

9 hours ago, BTH said:

You say that, but they haven’t shown that with their actions like other teams have.

Rebuilding teams trade away players with control. The Angels have not done that.

Trading away pedestrian players with control doesn’t really rebuild. (The Marlins just got a ton of prospects, but no top 100 prospects, so it’s just a high volume of lottery tickets.) We’re not talking about the Nats trading Juan Soto or the Marlins trading Christian Yellich. 

If the Angels traded Ohtani in 2022 or Trout in 2017 or 2018, those were their chances. Maybe also stuff like Sandoval in 2022, or Simmons in 2017ish. Obviously they passed on those opportunities to rebuild because of where they were with Trout and Ohtani.

I  don’t think where they are now is comparable, and I’m sure they know that too. I wouldn’t say “the Angels did this in 2022 so I think they’ll do the same in 2024-25.”

[Angels 1961]

7 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Trading away pedestrian players with control doesn’t really rebuild. (The Marlins just got a ton of prospects, but no top 100 prospects, so it’s just a high volume of lottery tickets.) We’re not talking about the Nats trading Juan Soto or the Marlins trading Christian Yellich. 

If the Angels traded Ohtani in 2022 or Trout in 2017 or 2018, those were their chances. Maybe also stuff like Sandoval in 2022, or Simmons in 2017ish. Obviously they passed on those opportunities to rebuild because of where they were with Trout and Ohtani.

I  don’t think where they are now is comparable, and I’m sure they know that too. I wouldn’t say “the Angels did this in 2022 so I think they’ll do the same in 2024-25.”

Rengifo was coming off an injury just before the deadline. He has had some injuries this year and last. I'm sure that played a part in his tradability. Can Rengifo let it be know he was not feeling right and word gets out. I really like Rengifo but without an extension it seems he should be traded this off season.

[Wisconsin27]

Dysfunctional organizations in all sports burn through GMs and coaches.  The last thing the Angels should do at this juncture is move on from Perry.  There are so many (dysfunctional) factors that have contributed to the end result.  Why continue the cycle leading up to another rebuild/retool year when the one obvious strength of the current GM is to identify and promote young, core pieces?  I hope they stay the course, at least in the short-term.

[angelsnationtalk]

On 7/30/2024 at 3:41 PM, mmc said:

Where you lose me is where you assume teams had interest in some of our shitty players

As much as i agree to this, my counter is maybe the Angels view their players way higher than they should. Hence why they always think they have a chance. Perhaps the got very good offers like @Second Base mentioned, but Perry and Arte think Ward/Rengifo/ and Anderson are Gods. 

To me, it makes sense since Arte botched the Rengifo/Ward trade with the Dodgers years ago. Perhaps we think they are worth top 50 prospects or higher when in reality they are worth a little less (which is fine).

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

As much as i agree to this, my counter is maybe the Angels view their players way higher than they should. Hence why they always think they have a chance. Perhaps the got very good offers like @Second Base mentioned, but Perry and Arte think Ward/Rengifo/ and Anderson are Gods. 

To me, it makes sense since Arte botched the Rengifo/Ward trade with the Dodgers years ago. Perhaps we think they are worth top 50 prospects or higher when in reality they are worth a little less (which is fine).

If they got “really good offers” those players would have been traded. My source is common sense.
Also in hindsight Arte botching that trade benefitted the Angels. 

[DMVol]

I thought the pundits who said Anderson's trade value was minimal would be proven wrong...but, in hindsight, I suspect they were right....and Fletcher is probably right....the preference was to trade him but the return wasn't there....if Anderson can put up numbers in 25 comparable to 24, why would you trade him for marginal prospects?  Rebuilding doesn't mean you make a bad trade.

[mmc]

I can’t take anyone seriously who is actually criticizing Minasian for not getting anything for Pillar and Strickland, a guy who was released midseason and a guy who started the season on a minor league contract.  It’s pretty hilarious to me that some find it unfathomable that no teams had interest in either player

[BTH]

11 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I  don’t think where they are now is comparable, and I’m sure they know that too. I wouldn’t say “the Angels did this in 2022 so I think they’ll do the same in 2024-25.”

Sure, there’s no denying that the circumstances are different.

I just worry that the single biggest factor (Arte) remains, and that could kibosh anything.

They were clearly open to trading players away now but I just worry (with Arte’s track record) that even if the right value is presented to them in a trade this offseason, he’s gonna want to keep them and believe they can contend in 2025.

Edited August 2 by BTH

[Stradling]

22 minutes ago, mmc said:

I can’t take anyone seriously who is actually criticizing Minasian for not getting anything for Pillar and Strickland, a guy who was released midseason and a guy who started the season on a minor league contract.  It’s pretty hilarious to me that some find it unfathomable that no teams had interest in either player

It’s not just no interest, the level of interest could have been guys worse than what we have that would have to be protected.