OC Register: Swanson: Time for Angels and their fans to lean into the long game

[T.G.]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Question: why does it matter if they say one thing and do another?

@T.G. Because they’re saying one thing and doing another. 
 

(Also, I could make a case that the quotes you’re referring to don’t really say what you think they say. None of that says “we’re going to win the division in 2024.” It’s all general rah rah stuff.)

I think any time someone says one thing and does something contrary to that - it bothers people.  That's human nature. 

Also... what's the point of "general rah rah stuff?"

[jsnpritchett]

Just now, T.G. said:

I think any time someone says one thing and does something contrary to that - it bothers people.  That's human nature. 

Yep. Seems pretty simple to me. 

[T.G.]

@Jeff Fletcher Let me add... this organization has "priors."  And what I mean by that is they have a history of trying to control the narrative and they're not very transparent.  Example of them trying to control the narrative: Excluding Sam Blum from the round table discussion Terry Smith used to do. 

This whole rebuilding without saying they're rebuilding is just one more thing in a history of head scratching actions.  They've created a culture where fans don't trust what they say and don't always understand what they're doing. 

Casual fans probably don't care.  A lot of AW members do.

That being said, I'm just answering your question.  I don't worry about things I don't have control over.

[Tank]

just a shot in the dark, but i would think if they came out and said "we're rebuilding", casual fans would stop buying tickets because they know it's going to take a few years. casual fans also have the choice of heading up the 5 to see a first place team with a reasonable shot of going deep in the playoffs.

"I'll go back when they're decent" is a very fan-ish thing to do, and we've all seen it happen multiple times.

the halos have to appeal to a  fanbase that includes people who are in it for the long haul alongside fans who are excited or critical over spring training standings. 

 

Edited May 21 by Tank

[T.G.]

3 minutes ago, Tank said:

just a shot in the dark, but i would think if they came out and said "we're rebuilding", casual fans would stop buying tickets because they know it's going to take a few years. casual fans also have the choice of heading up the 5 to see a first place team with a reasonable shot of going deep in the playoffs.

"I'll go back when they're decent" is a very fan-ish thing to do, and we've all seen it happen multiple times.

the halos have to appeal to a  fanbase that includes people who are in it for the long haul alongside fans who are excited or critical over spring training standings. 

 

I think even casual fans know they suck right now. Many have already found other things to do....

[BTH]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Serious question:

In all other areas, people don’t seem to care what the team says. They only care what it does. So why, on this particular issue, do people seem to want to hear the Angels says the words “we’re rebuilding,” as opposed to just understanding from their actions that that is what they’re doing?

(And don’t give me examples from 2023. It’s pretty clear they changed direction once Ohtani left.)

Their actions would be an acknowledgment that they are doing it— but they haven’t shown those actions either.

If they were truly rebuilding after Ohtani left, they would’ve traded guys like Drury, Estévez, Suarez, Rengifo, Ward, Sandoval, Canning, etc. in the offseason.

So the reason why I’d like to hear those words is because they haven‘t proven with their actions that they are rebuilding, so I’d at least like to know it’s their intention.

Edited May 21 by BTH

[jsnpritchett]

15 minutes ago, T.G. said:

I think even casual fans know they suck right now. Many have already found other things to do....

Right, as evidenced by the average attendance drop of over 4,000 per game so far--and it's probably gonna get worse. 

[BTH]

21 minutes ago, Tank said:

just a shot in the dark, but i would think if they came out and said "we're rebuilding", casual fans would stop buying tickets because they know it's going to take a few years.

Casual fans are the ones buying tickets to go to games no matter if it it’s 2009 and they were in 1st or if it’s 2024 and they suck.

The ones who are gonna stop buying tickets because they know it’s gonna take a few years aren’t casual fans.

Casual fans want to go to a baseball game and they don’t know whether the Angels have a top 5 or bottom 5 farm system.

[T.G.]

28 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Right, as evidenced by the average attendance drop of over 4,000 per game so far--and it's probably gonna get worse. 

I'm curious how much worse.  Then again, summer is coming... kids will be out of school.  Day at the ball park is still a thing.

[PattyD22]

50 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Right, as evidenced by the average attendance drop of over 4,000 per game so far--and it's probably gonna get worse. 

Not if they keep doing Star Wars giveaways.  Arte should commit to doing Star Wars stuff everyone game.  The stands were packed that weekend.

i just don’t see the crowds filling the stands for Luis Rengifo bobblehead night.

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, T.G. said:

@Jeff Fletcher Let me add... this organization has "priors."  And what I mean by that is they have a history of trying to control the narrative and they're not very transparent.  Example of them trying to control the narrative: Excluding Sam Blum from the round table discussion Terry Smith used to do. 

This whole rebuilding without saying they're rebuilding is just one more thing in a history of head scratching actions.  They've created a culture where fans don't trust what they say and don't always understand what they're doing. 

Casual fans probably don't care.  A lot of AW members do.

That being said, I'm just answering your question.  I don't worry about things I don't have control over.

I understand all that. 

I am only saying that, I think it's been pretty obvious by the way they've constructed the roster since Ohtani left that they are focused on doing what's best in the longer term, not just 2024. They didn't trade away any young players or make any significant commitments to old players. They didn't even get veteran backup plans to cover for guys like Schanuel, Neto, O'Hoppe or the pitchers if they failed, which is a pretty clear indication that they were willing to let them fail until they learned.

While they're doing all that, I don't think it's surprising that they haven't said: "We may not be very good this year, but hang with us." Or "We are OK losing with young players this year."

Instead, they're going to publicly say more vague things about having faith in the young players and building a winning team and learning how to win, etc. etc.

Anyway, you guys are all smart enough to see what's happening, no matter what they say about it, so who cares what they say about it?

[T.G.]

3 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

no matter what they say about it, so who cares what they say about it?

I don't really care, but some people need something specific to focus on.  Some are looking for more transparency. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, BTH said:

If they were truly rebuilding after Ohtani left, they would’ve traded guys like Drury, Estévez, Suarez, Rengifo, Ward, Sandoval, Canning, etc. in the offseason.

I think you're talking about a total blowup/rebuild for 2028. They're clearly not doing that. The clock is already ticking on the young core, so I think they feel they have reasonable hope of being good in 25-26.

[BTH]

13 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think you're talking about a total blowup/rebuild for 2028. They're clearly not doing that. The clock is already ticking on the young core, so I think they feel they have reasonable hope of being good in 25-26.

That’s kind of the problem though.

I think they should be doing that.

Because they could get a lot back if they trade Canning/Rengifo/Sandoval/Ward/etc.

Then you add those pieces to the young guys you already have, you’ll have a couple high draft picks, and the payroll should be pretty clear (with Rendon off the books after 2026).

I’m not concerned about the clock ticking for Schanuel/Neto/Adell/Soriano/O’Hoppe because, if they’re good, they should be able to extend them.

Edited May 21 by BTH

[Taylor]

26 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I understand all that. 

I am only saying that, I think it's been pretty obvious by the way they've constructed the roster since Ohtani left that they are focused on doing what's best in the longer term, not just 2024. They didn't trade away any young players or make any significant commitments to old players. They didn't even get veteran backup plans to cover for guys like Schanuel, Neto, O'Hoppe or the pitchers if they failed, which is a pretty clear indication that they were willing to let them fail until they learned.

While they're doing all that, I don't think it's surprising that they haven't said: "We may not be very good this year, but hang with us." Or "We are OK losing with young players this year."

Instead, they're going to publicly say more vague things about having faith in the young players and building a winning team and learning how to win, etc. etc.

Anyway, you guys are all smart enough to see what's happening, no matter what they say about it, so who cares what they say about it?

Do you think Ron Washington is on board with that?

[Jeff Fletcher]

17 minutes ago, BTH said:

I think they should be doing that.

Well, OK. That's a different question than the one I stepped in here to pose.

I was only asking about the issue of "what the Angels are saying." If you want to debate what they're "doing," that's a whole separate thing.

[Jeff Fletcher]

13 minutes ago, Taylor said:

Do you think Ron Washington is on board with that?

I think he understands that it might take some time for them to be as good as he would like them to be.

[BTH]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

They didn't trade away any young players or make any significant commitments to old players. They didn't even get veteran backup plans to cover for guys like Schanuel, Neto, O'Hoppe or the pitchers if they failed, which is a pretty clear indication that they were willing to let them fail until they learned.

Is that an indication, or is it just a product of Perry building poor depth and/or not having much money to work with?

I, personally, don’t believe the Angels moves have showed they are rebuilding (even for 25-26 you suggested instead of for the 27-28 version that I’d prefer).

And that’s why I want them to say what they’re doing, because their actions haven’t convinced me they are rebuilding.

But if/when they take those actions, then it doesn’t matter what they say.

[Jeff Fletcher]

7 minutes ago, BTH said:

Is that an indication, or is it just a product of Perry building poor depth and/or not having much money to work with?

I, personally, don’t believe the Angels moves have showed they are rebuilding (even for 25-26 you suggested instead of for the 27-28 version that I’d prefer).

And that’s why I want them to say what they’re doing, because their actions haven’t convinced me they are rebuilding.

But if/when they take those actions, then it doesn’t matter what they say.

Arte didn't give him money to get legit players because he didn't believe they could significantly improve the team enough. ("I'm not going to spend money just to spend money unless it significantly improves the team.") Clearly, he didn't wanted to spend $10-20M per players for guys like Bellinger or JD Martinez or Blake Snell when that still probably wouldn't be enough to get them to the playoffs.

So if you're scraping around for cheap players, you're not going to get very good players. So they got Aaron Hicks. When he flamed out, they got Kevin Pillar. If he flames out, they'll get someone else. In a sense it doesn't matter who the "depth" is because they really want to see Adell and Moniak play. Arte specifically said that he was optimistic about the young guys and wanted to see them play. He showed up at the freaking Future Stars game or whatever they called it.

[Dtwncbad]

1 hour ago, BTH said:

I, personally, don’t believe the Angels moves have showed they are rebuilding

Have you bothered to notice the actual ages of the players that make up the current roster, especially compared to the other teams in the league?

Edited May 21 by Dtwncbad

[BTH]

17 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Have you bothered to notice the actual ages of the players that make up the current roster, especially compared to the other teams in the league?

B: 11/30 in avg age

P: 22/30

Except Paris, all of the young guys on the MLB roster were gonna be on the roster regardless of if they were intended to rebuild or not.

Edited May 21 by BTH

[Blarg]

Adell is the old guy in that group. 

[Dtwncbad]

4 minutes ago, BTH said:

Except Paris, all of the young guys on the MLB roster were gonna be on the roster regardless of if they were intended to rebuild or not.

So the evidence was there that they had been rebuilding.  Got it.

Edited May 21 by Dtwncbad

[BTH]

12 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

So the evidence was there that they had been rebuilding.  Got it.

If you call playing young players in the majors rebuilding, sure.

IMO, there’s more to rebuilding than playing young players. It involves trading away players with value and investing in player development.

[Stradling]

This is why I continue to laugh at some guys on here. There’s very real evidence there’s a rebuild happening but they ignore that evidence. There’s evidence that a rebuild is happening but that doesn’t matter because the owner and GM won’t say it publicly.  Because it doesn’t fit into your self defined concept of a rebuild then it must not be happening. Oh and it makes zero since to trade players like Drury, Rengifo and Sandoval during free agency since there were free agents available. It’s much better to trade them at the deadline to maximize value.