Tear it down

[Jason]

3 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Hope is a good thing

That’s all we ever have with this team 

[Farmbuildingfan]

What is more aggravating this year than the previous losing years is that the Angels organization has made positive moves to make the Angels appear to be contenders on paper, but it just has not mattered.

So many of their losses seemed avoidable with just a drop of luck.

I would not go as far as stating that Arte does not care about winning, but if given the choice between winning or profits from star power, I think he prefers the latter.

He can show I am wrong by trading Ohtani.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Swordsman78]

13 minutes ago, Farmbuildingfan said:

What is more aggravating this year than the previous losing years is that the Angels organization has made positive moves to make the Angels appear to be contenders on paper, but it just has not mattered.

So many of their losses seemed avoidable with just a drop of luck.

I would not go as far as stating that Arte does not care about winning, but if given the choice between winning or profits from star power, I think he prefers the latter.

He can show I am wrong by trading Ohtani.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The product "on paper" is > than the product "executing on the field".

Edited June 4, 2023 by Swordsman78

[fan_since79]

19 minutes ago, Farmbuildingfan said:

What is more aggravating this year than the previous losing years is that the Angels organization has made positive moves to make the Angels appear to be contenders on paper, but it just has not mattered.

So many of their losses seemed avoidable with just a drop of luck.

I would not go as far as stating that Arte does not care about winning, but if given the choice between winning or profits from star power, I think he prefers the latter.

He can show I am wrong by trading Ohtani.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Arte paid something like $168 Million, in cash, for the team in 2003. It's worth at least $3 Billion now.

Hard to walk away from that kind of money machine. Winning isn't required.

[Ron Mexico]

The Angels will never win Shit as long as Arte is the owner. That dude is bad JuJu 

 

[Stradling]

Adults think bad juju is real?

[REDneck]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

Adults think bad juju is real?

If you practice Voodoo...absolutely!

Try to be more inclusive Strad!

Edited June 4, 2023 by REDneck

[ScottT]

All this talk about paper makes me think of Terry Smith, who still uses the phrase "tale of the tape"

A little outdated 

[T.G.]

Baseball is a funny game. It’s often unpredictable. Momentum can change at any given time. From game to game or even  pitch to pitch.

Things don’t change until they do.  

Maybe the Angels track record hasn’t been great for the last 10 years, but to assume this year will be the same is kind of silly. 

You should be able to watch the season unfold one game at a time. Trends change. Again, baseball is unpredictable. There are countless examples of teams turning it around when it seems they won’t.

You can rant all you want. You can call for wholesale changes. None of it is going to change anything. The Angels are highly unlikely to make wholesale changes. It’s not what they do. 

How you handle the wins and losses are on you. Expecting the worst is a pretty sad way of going through a season, IMO. It’s a miserable way to watch baseball.

I’ve said this before - The Angles winning or losing isn’t going to impact my day or life. 

I still look forward to watching the season unfold. I’m hopeful, but will be fine regardless.

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, T.G. said:

Baseball is a funny game. It’s often unpredictable. Momentum can change at any given time. From game to game or even  pitch to pitch.

Things don’t change until they do.  

Maybe the Angels track record hasn’t been great for the last 10 years, but to assume this year will be the same is kind of silly. 

You should be able to watch the season unfold one game at a time. Trends change. Again, baseball is unpredictable. There are countless examples of teams turning it around when it seems they won’t.

You can rant all you want. You can call for wholesale changes. None of it is going to change anything. The Angels are highly unlikely to make wholesale changes. It’s not what they do. 

How you handle the wins and losses are on you. Expecting the worst is a pretty sad way of going through a season, IMO. It’s a miserable way to watch baseball.

I’ve said this before - The Angles winning or losing isn’t going to impact my day or life. 

I still look forward to watching the season unfold. I’m hopeful, but will be fine regardless.

Well said

[REDneck]

19 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Well said

Get a grip..they're done.

All of the AL east is ahead of us just for the third Wild card.

Edited June 5, 2023 by REDneck

[Inside Pitch]

6 hours ago, REDneck said:

Get a grip..they're done.

All of the AL east is ahead of us just for the third Wild card.

I've spent most of the last ten days out on the water not paying attention to real life stuff -- much less baseball.  I haven't watched them play much, and when I have it's been mostly uninspiring, boring baseball that basically had me take the boat back out.   

So, having gone on record of being rather ignorant of the current flow of things other than what any idiot could pull from reading box scores, I kind of like the build of the team currently, the Moore injury IMO being the biggest setback but I have been watching and waiting for Soriano to get the call -- Yovan too, but I think they'll ride out the Loup train for a bit since his predictive data has been trending up even if it's maybe not translated in games (again, haven't him pitch).  

MIke Trout's predictive stuff has all moved north the last ten days, Griffin Canning has changed where he throws his FB of late -- mostly using it as a chase pitch out above the zone, I think someone may have figured something out usage wise.  Barria is sort of cementing his status as the most underrated player on the team.    Gio Urshela has been more like Gio Urshela and less like peak level David Fletcher of late which has also been good.  Mickey Moniak's fluke streak appears to be over and I wouldn't be surprised to see them move him back to AAA if they didn't have to open up a roster spot for whoever they would recall in his place.

I know a lot of people are jumping off ledges right now and can't blame anyone but I pointed to the pitching they would be facing starting with the Miami series and pretty much hinted that despite the teams they would be facing the arms in particular could prove difficult -- they ultimately did.

The biggest issue the last ten days has been the same issue that's been dogging them all season -- the SP, particularly the front half of it. 

Ohtani has been kind of dogshit on the mound.  Going back to April 26th, he's managed an ERA over 5.00 in 7 starts and it's not like he's been unlucky or the defense has let him down, his FIP is right in line with his ERA -- he's kind of been the anti-Griffin in that I think it's pitch usage that's hurting him.  Maybe have whoever has been calling Canning's pitches do the same for Ohtani.

Sandoval's stretch of meh goes back even further to his April 20th start -- but he's been far more up and down than Ohtani has in his performances and his predictive data has been better.  He has seemingly done this good start bad start thing for nearly two months -- that needs to get fixed.

Detmers is likely the guy that's caught the most flak and he's actually the guy that in theory has pitched best -- he's seen his BaBip come in over .400 going back to April 23, allowing an ERA near 5.50 over that span but an FIP under 3.50.   Most of the damage against him has been batting average driven, he's only allowed 3 HRs over that span and he's limited his walks while at the same time generating a ton of his own outs.  But if there is any guy that could benefit from the use of an opener on the staff it's Detmers -- he's 23 and very much a 5 inning guy right now, in part because when he's doing well he's generating a lot of Ks and thus far in his career that's also meant using a ton of pitches.   He's a work in progress, people should probably be patient with him -- they won't be but whatever.

Anderson is Anderson -- team needs to hope his results come in closer to his FIP.  He's posted a bad ERA all season and it's earned but his FIP in May was 4.36.  They need him to be a filler type SP that gives them 6 innings because there is a ton of volatility with their younger arms.

Really while everyone has been at times obsessing over Mike Trout's bad 14 games, the bullpen blowups and anything and everything Arte the problem all season has been the rotation.  If they don't get that squared away they'll be selling in 5-6 weeks.  The offense consistently having to start from behind and the pen rarely having any sort of a cushion to work basically all goes back to the issues in the rotation.

Fix that, the team sorts itself out..   I'm going back out on the water F this crap.

[Angels 1961]

It's not so much of wholesale changes. It's about Ohtani and if he is leaving after this season. Looks like he will test F/A so trade him or not to trade him before the deadline. I think you cannot let him walk for nothing. Halos have about a 5% chance of making playoffs. What is best for Angels moving forward and into 2024? They have some nice young building blocks already on this team now. Add to those building blocks or take another step backwards. Other changes at deadline sure players like Renfroe, Urshela, Moore and others should also be traded. 

[Stradling]

14 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

It's not so much of wholesale changes. It's about Ohtani and if he is leaving after this season. Looks like he will test F/A so trade him or not to trade him before the deadline. I think you cannot let him walk for nothing. Halos have about a 5% chance of making playoffs. What is best for Angels moving forward and into 2024? They have some nice young building blocks already on this team now. Add to those building blocks or take another step backwards. Other changes at deadline sure players like Renfroe, Urshela, Moore and others should also be traded. 

I have no idea if they’ll make the playoffs, doesn’t look like it, but 5%, I doubt it’s that low. 

[Angels 1961]

46 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I have no idea if they’ll make the playoffs, doesn’t look like it, but 5%, I doubt it’s that low. 

CBS Sports projections have Angels at 79 wins, 0% at winning division and today 3.7% at making playoffs.

[stormngt]

13 hours ago, REDneck said:

Get a grip..they're done.

All of the AL east is ahead of us just for the third Wild card.

Yes we are done!  There are 101 games left and our elimination number is down to 95.

What a dumb ass statement!  I would let it slide but you thought about calling me out based you dumb ass statement.

Edited June 5, 2023 by stormngt

[REDneck]

6 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Yes we are done!  There are 101 games left and our elimination number is down to 95.

What a dumb ass statement!  I would let it slide but youbthought about calling me out based you dumb ass statement.

Bro?

 

[Duren, Duren]

Before the Miami series they were slowly but steadily making some progress. But the homestand ended badly and the Houston series was a tough reality check in terms of divisional status. A head to head recognition of how tough it is to gain ground and outplay a very good, deep team day after day. 

They absolutely have to win the next few series and possibly sweep Texas if at all possible. They need to have a situation that can be seen as a turning point and accelerate momentum. 

Even the Houston broadcasters were impressed by how good Texas is playing. And has been expanding their lead even though Houston is on a hot streak themselves. They also mention the separation in the division with those two teams and the .500 teams in Seattle and the Angels. 

Let's face it. The division will be incredibly hard to win if either or both the Texas teams play even somewhat over .500 the rest of the way. And Seattle will not go away either in terms of being  tough competition. 

From now till the all star break will determine if the Angels can stay in touch for the third wild card. At some point a few of those eastern teams should hit hard times. Especially when they play each other. So it's not beyond reason to think the Angels can hang in and compete for a wild card spot. If they get their act together and steadily gain ground a little at a time. 

[Angel Oracle]

Most important things going forward:

1 - Rendon needs to stay healthy.

2 - Ohtani needs to dump the sweeper against LHHs.

3 - The starting LHPs need to be a lot more consistent, like they were the second half of 2022.

4 - The front end relievers need to be a lot more consistent.

5 - The defense can’t be up and down.  Maybe that means less playing multiple positions for guys like Drury, Urshela, and Rengifo?

 

[Tank]

On 6/4/2023 at 9:07 AM, Stradling said:

He’s signed one super star (Albert) and one “Star” (Hamilton) and has kept Trout. Rendon and Upton don’t bring people into the stadium unless they do one thing, help the team win.  No one bitches he spent on Hunter, because he helped them win. 

i'm furious that you left shea hillenbrand out of this post. furious!!

[T.G.]

5 minutes ago, Tank said:

i'm furious that you left shea hillenbrand out of this post. furious!!

Pony boy!

[Tank]

6 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I've spent most of the last ten days out on the water not paying attention to real life stuff -- much less baseball.  I haven't watched them play much, and when I have it's been mostly uninspiring, boring baseball that basically had me take the boat back out.   

So, having gone on record of being rather ignorant of the current flow of things other than what any idiot could pull from reading box scores, I kind of like the build of the team currently, the Moore injury IMO being the biggest setback but I have been watching and waiting for Soriano to get the call -- Yovan too, but I think they'll ride out the Loup train for a bit since his predictive data has been trending up even if it's maybe not translated in games (again, haven't him pitch).  

MIke Trout's predictive stuff has all moved north the last ten days, Griffin Canning has changed where he throws his FB of late -- mostly using it as a chase pitch out above the zone, I think someone may have figured something out usage wise.  Barria is sort of cementing his status as the most underrated player on the team.    Gio Urshela has been more like Gio Urshela and less like peak level David Fletcher of late which has also been good.  Mickey Moniak's fluke streak appears to be over and I wouldn't be surprised to see them move him back to AAA if they didn't have to open up a roster spot for whoever they would recall in his place.

I know a lot of people are jumping off ledges right now and can't blame anyone but I pointed to the pitching they would be facing starting with the Miami series and pretty much hinted that despite the teams they would be facing the arms in particular could prove difficult -- they ultimately did.

The biggest issue the last ten days has been the same issue that's been dogging them all season -- the SP, particularly the front half of it. 

Ohtani has been kind of dogshit on the mound.  Going back to April 26th, he's managed an ERA over 5.00 in 7 starts and it's not like he's been unlucky or the defense has let him down, his FIP is right in line with his ERA -- he's kind of been the anti-Griffin in that I think it's pitch usage that's hurting him.  Maybe have whoever has been calling Canning's pitches do the same for Ohtani.

Sandoval's stretch of meh goes back even further to his April 20th start -- but he's been far more up and down than Ohtani has in his performances and his predictive data has been better.  He has seemingly done this good start bad start thing for nearly two months -- that needs to get fixed.

Detmers is likely the guy that's caught the most flak and he's actually the guy that in theory has pitched best -- he's seen his BaBip come in over .400 going back to April 23, allowing an ERA near 5.50 over that span but an FIP under 3.50.   Most of the damage against him has been batting average driven, he's only allowed 3 HRs over that span and he's limited his walks while at the same time generating a ton of his own outs.  But if there is any guy that could benefit from the use of an opener on the staff it's Detmers -- he's 23 and very much a 5 inning guy right now, in part because when he's doing well he's generating a lot of Ks and thus far in his career that's also meant using a ton of pitches.   He's a work in progress, people should probably be patient with him -- they won't be but whatever.

Anderson is Anderson -- team needs to hope his results come in closer to his FIP.  He's posted a bad ERA all season and it's earned but his FIP in May was 4.36.  They need him to be a filler type SP that gives them 6 innings because there is a ton of volatility with their younger arms.

Really while everyone has been at times obsessing over Mike Trout's bad 14 games, the bullpen blowups and anything and everything Arte the problem all season has been the rotation.  If they don't get that squared away they'll be selling in 5-6 weeks.  The offense consistently having to start from behind and the pen rarely having any sort of a cushion to work basically all goes back to the issues in the rotation.

Fix that, the team sorts itself out..   I'm going back out on the water F this crap.

what an incredibly superficial post.

[Chico]

I liked the good ole days when the AL West could be won with a .502 winning percentage and everyone was up around .500 more or less. It was a comfortable, mediocre division. Then they let the invasive species Cheatin' Astros in and ever since it's been a one or two horse race. 

[Docwaukee]

11 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I've spent most of the last ten days out on the water not paying attention to real life stuff -- much less baseball.  I haven't watched them play much, and when I have it's been mostly uninspiring, boring baseball that basically had me take the boat back out.   

So, having gone on record of being rather ignorant of the current flow of things other than what any idiot could pull from reading box scores, I kind of like the build of the team currently, the Moore injury IMO being the biggest setback but I have been watching and waiting for Soriano to get the call -- Yovan too, but I think they'll ride out the Loup train for a bit since his predictive data has been trending up even if it's maybe not translated in games (again, haven't him pitch).  

MIke Trout's predictive stuff has all moved north the last ten days, Griffin Canning has changed where he throws his FB of late -- mostly using it as a chase pitch out above the zone, I think someone may have figured something out usage wise.  Barria is sort of cementing his status as the most underrated player on the team.    Gio Urshela has been more like Gio Urshela and less like peak level David Fletcher of late which has also been good.  Mickey Moniak's fluke streak appears to be over and I wouldn't be surprised to see them move him back to AAA if they didn't have to open up a roster spot for whoever they would recall in his place.

I know a lot of people are jumping off ledges right now and can't blame anyone but I pointed to the pitching they would be facing starting with the Miami series and pretty much hinted that despite the teams they would be facing the arms in particular could prove difficult -- they ultimately did.

The biggest issue the last ten days has been the same issue that's been dogging them all season -- the SP, particularly the front half of it. 

Ohtani has been kind of dogshit on the mound.  Going back to April 26th, he's managed an ERA over 5.00 in 7 starts and it's not like he's been unlucky or the defense has let him down, his FIP is right in line with his ERA -- he's kind of been the anti-Griffin in that I think it's pitch usage that's hurting him.  Maybe have whoever has been calling Canning's pitches do the same for Ohtani.

Sandoval's stretch of meh goes back even further to his April 20th start -- but he's been far more up and down than Ohtani has in his performances and his predictive data has been better.  He has seemingly done this good start bad start thing for nearly two months -- that needs to get fixed.

Detmers is likely the guy that's caught the most flak and he's actually the guy that in theory has pitched best -- he's seen his BaBip come in over .400 going back to April 23, allowing an ERA near 5.50 over that span but an FIP under 3.50.   Most of the damage against him has been batting average driven, he's only allowed 3 HRs over that span and he's limited his walks while at the same time generating a ton of his own outs.  But if there is any guy that could benefit from the use of an opener on the staff it's Detmers -- he's 23 and very much a 5 inning guy right now, in part because when he's doing well he's generating a lot of Ks and thus far in his career that's also meant using a ton of pitches.   He's a work in progress, people should probably be patient with him -- they won't be but whatever.

Anderson is Anderson -- team needs to hope his results come in closer to his FIP.  He's posted a bad ERA all season and it's earned but his FIP in May was 4.36.  They need him to be a filler type SP that gives them 6 innings because there is a ton of volatility with their younger arms.

Really while everyone has been at times obsessing over Mike Trout's bad 14 games, the bullpen blowups and anything and everything Arte the problem all season has been the rotation.  If they don't get that squared away they'll be selling in 5-6 weeks.  The offense consistently having to start from behind and the pen rarely having any sort of a cushion to work basically all goes back to the issues in the rotation.

Fix that, the team sorts itself out..   I'm going back out on the water F this crap.

The SP is, by far, the most disappointing aspect of this team.  It's actually all working except one thing.  They're getting weak contact.  They're getting guys to chase etc.  It's the GD walks.  And what's weird about it is that they're about league avg. by # of pitches per pa and they actually have a pretty high 0-2%.  They're a bit up there in 3 ball counts but it's not crazy.  It's almost like they've made a conscious choice to essentially pitch around certain guys.  Or to avoid certain pitches all together on certain guys.  

I'm not sure how to prove my theory but it could also partially explain why certain guys have really struggled 3rd time through.  When you limit the pitchers repertoire it essentially turns them into a one and two pitch pitcher.  Are the pitchers not executing certain pitches or are they not even given the opportunity?  

[gurn67]

7 hours ago, Duren, Duren said:

Before the Miami series they were slowly but steadily making some progress. But the homestand ended badly and the Houston series was a tough reality check in terms of divisional status. A head to head recognition of how tough it is to gain ground and outplay a very good, deep team day after day. 

They absolutely have to win the next few series and possibly sweep Texas if at all possible. They need to have a situation that can be seen as a turning point and accelerate momentum. 

Even the Houston broadcasters were impressed by how good Texas is playing. And has been expanding their lead even though Houston is on a hot streak themselves. They also mention the separation in the division with those two teams and the .500 teams in Seattle and the Angels. 

Let's face it. The division will be incredibly hard to win if either or both the Texas teams play even somewhat over .500 the rest of the way. And Seattle will not go away either in terms of being  tough competition. 

From now till the all star break will determine if the Angels can stay in touch for the third wild card. At some point a few of those eastern teams should hit hard times. Especially when they play each other. So it's not beyond reason to think the Angels can hang in and compete for a wild card spot. If they get their act together and steadily gain ground a little at a time. 

If this team could just consistently win 11 out of every 20 games. Maybe a little more. Maybe a little less, but just stay roughly on that pace. Then, they would be a playoff contender every season. It seems like it has been impossible for even that level of play to occur now for 7, going on 8, seasons now. It's mind boggling in a way. You would think at least one of those years several guys would over achieve for a season, kind of like how 2014 ended up playing out with the pitching. However, it just doesn't happen. No team should have a losing record for 8 seasons with a guy like Trout on their team. I don't know if any team in the modern era has been that consecutively terrible with a player of that caliber in the lineup. Then, you add in Ohtani the last few years, and it's still the same. Nothing changes, and Trout is now hitting the end of the traditionally non-steroid affected peak performance offensive years of 28-32.