Trade a starting pitcher

[Second Base]

Yes, I am in favor of trading a starting pitcher. However, for different purposes. Obviously Perry is fighting for his job after the sale goes through, so he's not just going to start the rebuild, even though it's probably what's best for the team currently. 

But if we're talking about what's best for the team... Yeah trading high on a pitcher to maximize a prospect return is probably what's best for the organization.

[BTH]

If they’re trading a SP, they need to be bringing in another SP in conjunction.

If you think you can get a better SS or LF by trading a SP for a SS or LF and signing another SP, that’s fine.

There aren’t really any mid-tier free agent SS’s, but there are many mid-tier free agent SP’s.

[BTH]

5 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

Or what about one of Detmers or Sandoval for Albies?  

Not sure why the Braves would do that.

Their rotation is:

Fried

Strider

Wright

Morton

Anderson/Soroka/Muller/Elder

 

But they only have Albies, Grissom, and Arcia at 2B/SS. Even if they re-sign Swanson, they still have more SP depth than middle infield depth.

[tdawg87]

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I’m not trading Sandoval.  No way.  I personally think he could be absolutely elite.  He has the stuff and he has shown plenty of dominance.  He now has a good amount of experience.  This could be a year he clicks and is lights out.

 

I mean

[Angels 1961]

DO NOT TRADE ANY STARTING PITCHING

[T.G.]

2 hours ago, Stradling said:

Yelling has about $120 million worth of negative value. 

I think you underestimate the positive value of YELLING!

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, T.G. said:

I think you underestimate the positive value of YELLING!

Autocorrect is a bitch 

[Angelsjunky]

Trade Jaime Barria and Jordyn Adams for Brandon Marsh.

[Docwaukee]

3 hours ago, Second Base said:

Yes, I am in favor of trading a starting pitcher. However, for different purposes. Obviously Perry is fighting for his job after the sale goes through, so he's not just going to start the rebuild, even though it's probably what's best for the team currently. 

But if we're talking about what's best for the team... Yeah trading high on a pitcher to maximize a prospect return is probably what's best for the organization.

They don't need to rebuild.  It's too late/early for that.  They're caught in the middle a bit.  They could actually spend their way through some talent needs in the short term if they get the right owner.  

[Wisconsin27]

Pitching and defense wins.

Cost-controlled, young pitching is hard to come by.

We have some.  Let's not deplete it by trying to fill other holes that may be easier to fill.  

Patrick and Detmers are not available, imo.  And I'm of the opinion that Suarez was rushed a bit and his best is yet-to-come.  While I agree we should entertain offers for him, I don't sell based on his current value, but rather on what he might become.....or I don't sell at all.

The value in being able to spend $ on position players while you have cost-controlled, high-end, homegrown pitching is just enormous.  And I think/hope we have more on the way (Silseth, Rod, Bush, even Canning, etc.).  We really need to tread carefully.  I might feel differently if I felt we were really close and had a specific need to get us over the top.  I just don't think we are there yet and would prefer we stay patient.  Hell, there are some who think we need an entire rebuild....yet any rebuild would begin with trying to find exactly what we have....upside, cost-controlled, young starters.

[Second Base]

1 hour ago, Docwaukee said:

They don't need to rebuild.  It's too late/early for that.  They're caught in the middle a bit.  They could actually spend their way through some talent needs in the short term if they get the right owner.  

You could say that about literally any team in baseball, Doc. I mean shoot, if Arte stayed off the ops side of things and maintained a payroll as high as the Yankees and Dodgers or more recently, the Padres then yeah, shortcomings could be masked with money. But it's still a short term fix for a long term problem. 

At their current 190 million payroll cap, or even if they went up against the CBT at 204, they'd still be a very flawed organization. Beyond 2023, in order to win, and rebuild the farm simultaneously, they'd likely need to bump payroll up to like 250 million a year (assuming they convince Ohtani to stay) for a five year period in order to augment the roster and not trade any prospects. Of course, the penalties for doing this would need draft picks as it is, which hurts too. 

But evidently, we're all fine with sacrificing two consecutive 2nd round picks on two pitchers, one of which isn't even in the organization anymore. But it evens out in the end, because we got Mickey Moniak, right. 

I see what you're saying. I'm just not convinced Arte will increase payroll in the middle of a same, with long term commitments that should effect the price of the team. And if that's not going to happen, then they should rebuild. Being stuck in the middle, as they've been for eight years now... That's exactly where you don't want to be. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Second Base

[AngelsLakersFan]

14 hours ago, Second Base said:

You could say that about literally any team in baseball, Doc. I mean shoot, if Arte stayed off the ops side of things and maintained a payroll as high as the Yankees and Dodgers or more recently, the Padres then yeah, shortcomings could be masked with money. But it's still a short term fix for a long term problem. 

At their current 190 million payroll cap, or even if they went up against the CBT at 204, they'd still be a very flawed organization. Beyond 2023, in order to win, and rebuild the farm simultaneously, they'd likely need to bump payroll up to like 250 million a year (assuming they convince Ohtani to stay) for a five year period in order to augment the roster and not trade any prospects. Of course, the penalties for doing this would need draft picks as it is, which hurts too. 

But evidently, we're all fine with sacrificing two consecutive 2nd round picks on two pitchers, one of which isn't even in the organization anymore. But it evens out in the end, because we got Mickey Moniak, right. 

I see what you're saying. I'm just not convinced Arte will increase payroll in the middle of a same, with long term commitments that should effect the price of the team. And if that's not going to happen, then they should rebuild. Being stuck in the middle, as they've been for eight years now... That's exactly where you don't want to be. 

Rebuilding was the right call up until the moment that Arte announced he was selling the team. Now it's up in the air. If they can convince Ohtani to stay, with the young pitching they have, and Trout still a top player, there is the makings of a legit core in the short term. A decent GM, with a free hand and a little payroll flexibility provided by a new owner should be able to make this team competitive. 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

On 11/19/2022 at 3:36 PM, Docwaukee said:

Or what about one of Detmers or Sandoval for Albies?  

It would take far more than both of them to get Albies.

[ThisismineScios]

The logical one to trade is Suarez. He's proven it now over 2 good seasons, pitching at about a 2-2.5 WAR rate stretched as a starter over a full season. He's 24 and has 4 more years of control. However, I think some of the young arms the Angels have have more potential than him. That doesn't even include Canning, C-Rod or Davidson (meh). I think pairing him with a prospect in the 20s (Adams, Vera, Pina) could get them a quality OF and RP. Mentioned elsewhere but I love Suarez + prospect for Santander and Tate. 

[Warfarin]

3 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

The logical one to trade is Suarez. He's proven it now over 2 good seasons, pitching at about a 2-2.5 WAR rate stretched as a starter over a full season. He's 24 and has 4 more years of control. However, I think some of the young arms the Angels have have more potential than him. That doesn't even include Canning, C-Rod or Davidson (meh). I think pairing him with a prospect in the 20s (Adams, Vera, Pina) could get them a quality OF and RP. Mentioned elsewhere but I love Suarez + prospect for Santander and Tate. 

I understand the thought process, but I am very reluctant to trade from our pitching depth.  We have some, but not a ton.  Imagine next offseason, if Ohtani leaves and we traded Suarez in a deal.  That leaves us with Anderson, Sandoval, Detmers, and ..?  I understand we have some prospects (Bush, Silseth, Junk, etc), but none of them are yet proven, and losing Ohtani + trading away Suarez would suddenly make SP a significant priority to fill.

I think we should just be grateful to have our rotation filled.  If we ever have an "issue" of having too many good SPs and not enough rotation spots, then we can consider trading someone at that point.

[BTH]

10 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

Mentioned elsewhere but I love Suarez + prospect for Santander and Tate. 

It doesn't sound like the Orioles are moving Santander.

 

From MLB.com:

“Well, [Santander’s] been a popular guy with other teams since I’ve been here, but look, we like him,” general manager Mike Elias told MLB.com’s Jon Paul Morosi at last week’s GM Meetings in Las Vegas. “He batted third for us all year, he can play a really solid right field, he’s great in the clubhouse. A switch-hitting DH, he goes well with Adley [Rutschman] in the middle of the lineup and the other guys that we have coming.

“So we see no real strategy in moving him, and I’m excited he’s coming back for the next two years. But, you know, obviously we do our jobs and we listen to people.”

[ThisismineScios]

5 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

I understand the thought process, but I am very reluctant to trade from our pitching depth.  We have some, but not a ton.  Imagine next offseason, if Ohtani leaves and we traded Suarez in a deal.  That leaves us with Anderson, Sandoval, Detmers, and ..?  I understand we have some prospects (Bush, Silseth, Junk, etc), but none of them are yet proven, and losing Ohtani + trading away Suarez would suddenly make SP a significant priority to fill.

I think we should just be grateful to have our rotation filled.  If we ever have an "issue" of having too many good SPs and not enough rotation spots, then we can consider trading someone at that point.

On principle I don't disagree at all. It's been awhile since we've had a surplus. Let's not forget about Canning, whose floor (if he can maintain health, big if) is a #5 and upside is probably a #3. C-Rod? We know the upside. Upside as a starter is #2 with his stuff. I think he's going to wind up in the bullpen as a high leverage shut down guy. Davidson is pure depth. And, Barria. Barria is the definition of depth. He is out of options and they need to make a decision on him. Between these 4, along with Ky Bush, Silseth, David Daniel, Janson Junk, I do really feel they have quality depth and could also replace Suarez. It may not be the "wisest" move, but they have big holes to fill at SS and LF. And I don't think both of these are getting filled in free agency. Therefore they have to trade from the only area of depth they have in the whole organization: SP. 

The fact is that their farm system will not bring back much value. It's just not there yet. Even guys like Quero and Neto wouldn't be the tentpole in a trade for say a Reynolds, Varsho, S Murphy, or Marquez. The farm isn't there yet. So while we can put together offers like Placencia, Silseth, and Blakely and think it'll net us Pablo Lopez, it just won't. We need to trade a proven starter, and I like the upside of Sandoval and Detmers too much to deal them. 

[ThisismineScios]

8 minutes ago, Trendon said:

It doesn't sound like the Orioles are moving Santander.

 

From MLB.com:

“Well, [Santander’s] been a popular guy with other teams since I’ve been here, but look, we like him,” general manager Mike Elias told MLB.com’s Jon Paul Morosi at last week’s GM Meetings in Las Vegas. “He batted third for us all year, he can play a really solid right field, he’s great in the clubhouse. A switch-hitting DH, he goes well with Adley [Rutschman] in the middle of the lineup and the other guys that we have coming.

“So we see no real strategy in moving him, and I’m excited he’s coming back for the next two years. But, you know, obviously we do our jobs and we listen to people.”

I don't think there's any chatter about moving him, but I think he's a great corner OF on a team completely desperate for starting pitching. He'd be who I targeted. 

[Angelsjunky]

Anyone is trade bait for the right price, but in reality, I'm not trading Sandoval or Detmers - and there are 29 other teams that would love to have either one. Sandoval is arguably a true #2 starter already, though he fluctuates from #1 to #4 performances so he isn't quite a stopper yet, so is probably more of a #2.5; Detmers improved in the second half, becoming a solid #3 with upside. You just don't trade guys like this with 4+ years of club control.

Suarez? Sure. But I wouldn't undersell on him...he actually was pretty solid, with some room to improve, though I don't see him maxing out at better than a good #4, maybe fringe #3. But that's not bad for your 5th best starter. But the Angels have several guys in the high minors who can be that within a year or two.

[Warfarin]

8 hours ago, ThisismineScios said:

On principle I don't disagree at all. It's been awhile since we've had a surplus. Let's not forget about Canning, whose floor (if he can maintain health, big if) is a #5 and upside is probably a #3. C-Rod? We know the upside. Upside as a starter is #2 with his stuff. I think he's going to wind up in the bullpen as a high leverage shut down guy. Davidson is pure depth. And, Barria. Barria is the definition of depth. He is out of options and they need to make a decision on him. Between these 4, along with Ky Bush, Silseth, David Daniel, Janson Junk, I do really feel they have quality depth and could also replace Suarez. It may not be the "wisest" move, but they have big holes to fill at SS and LF. And I don't think both of these are getting filled in free agency. Therefore they have to trade from the only area of depth they have in the whole organization: SP. 

The fact is that their farm system will not bring back much value. It's just not there yet. Even guys like Quero and Neto wouldn't be the tentpole in a trade for say a Reynolds, Varsho, S Murphy, or Marquez. The farm isn't there yet. So while we can put together offers like Placencia, Silseth, and Blakely and think it'll net us Pablo Lopez, it just won't. We need to trade a proven starter, and I like the upside of Sandoval and Detmers too much to deal them. 

Yeah, I understand.  I just think at this point, given all the question marks of the guys you've mentioned (injuries, unproven, etc), I'd probably err on the side of caution and not deplete SP depth.

LF/OF is a position that should be fairly easy to fill, and one that does not require us to dip into our SP depth.  If we truly wanted to improve SS without committing to a long-term deal to one of the big 4, that might be a position that we would have to dip into our SP depth and swing a trade, since it's much harder to find a good SS that doesn't require a mega deal on the open market.

IMO, this is one of the reasons why Minasian traded Marsh for O'Hoppe - he traded a position that is fairly easy to fill (LF) for a position that is very difficult to fill (C).

[angelsnationtalk]

I think it honestly depends if certain SS rumors are true. If we are still looking for a permanent SS then I'd imagine Rengifo could be packaged up with Suarez and someone else to net something good.

In theory:
Angels could sign a SS (top end or mid tier)
Then make a trade package of Suarez/Rengifo/whoever to get someone like McCarthy or any other outfield help
Then make a run at signing Senga. 

It's a ton of money the Angels have but won't spend. 
Also checks off multiple boxes, but I don't think it's possible until you get that SS.

[angelsnationtalk]

On 11/19/2022 at 11:36 PM, Second Base said:

At their current 190 million payroll cap, or even if they went up against the CBT at 204, they'd still be a very flawed organization. Beyond 2023, in order to win, and rebuild the farm simultaneously, they'd likely need to bump payroll up to like 250 million a year (assuming they convince Ohtani to stay) for a five year period in order to augment the roster and not trade any prospects. Of course, the penalties for doing this would need draft picks as it is, which hurts too. 

CBT for 2023 is $233M.
Although Arte has always cared about actual payroll so $190 makes sense. 
If he didn't, they'd have quite a bit more to spend.

Edited November 21, 2022 by angelsnationtalk

[Angel Oracle]

On 11/19/2022 at 6:33 PM, Dtwncbad said:

I’m not trading Sandoval.  No way.  I personally think he could be absolutely elite.  He has the stuff and he has shown plenty of dominance.  He now has a good amount of experience.  This could be a year he clicks and is lights out.

 

Yep, the Cole Hamels vibe

[Erstad Grit]

On 11/20/2022 at 9:05 PM, ThisismineScios said:

On principle I don't disagree at all. It's been awhile since we've had a surplus. Let's not forget about Canning, whose floor (if he can maintain health, big if) is a #5 and upside is probably a #3. C-Rod? We know the upside. Upside as a starter is #2 with his stuff. I think he's going to wind up in the bullpen as a high leverage shut down guy. Davidson is pure depth. And, Barria. Barria is the definition of depth. He is out of options and they need to make a decision on him. Between these 4, along with Ky Bush, Silseth, David Daniel, Janson Junk, I do really feel they have quality depth and could also replace Suarez. It may not be the "wisest" move, but they have big holes to fill at SS and LF. And I don't think both of these are getting filled in free agency. Therefore they have to trade from the only area of depth they have in the whole organization: SP. 

The fact is that their farm system will not bring back much value. It's just not there yet. Even guys like Quero and Neto wouldn't be the tentpole in a trade for say a Reynolds, Varsho, S Murphy, or Marquez. The farm isn't there yet. So while we can put together offers like Placencia, Silseth, and Blakely and think it'll net us Pablo Lopez, it just won't. We need to trade a proven starter, and I like the upside of Sandoval and Detmers too much to deal them. 

I just wanted to say I enjoy your posts

[Angel Oracle]

On 11/20/2022 at 8:40 PM, Vegas Halo Fan said:

It would take far more than both of them to get Albies.

While Albies is an XBHs machine for a 2B, his defense is just decent.  Only .5 dWAR in 2021, and .0 in 2022 in 64 games

I’d rather go with Rengifo and not trade the young starting pitching. Wait a year to see if Ohtani re-signs.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Angel Oracle