OC Register: Joe Maddon: ‘There’s no emotion anymore’ with Angels

[Inside Pitch]

4 minutes ago, Duren, Duren said:

A manager is in a different world than a GM during a game. And many GMs have never been players or even have been in dugouts much.  Ivory tower suites are great for observation and checking spreadsheets, but maybe a manager has a better understanding of the players on a game by game basis. 

Not that managers are all equal and don't screw things up. But they know the pulse of the players up close and personal in the heat of competition. So it is easy to see Maddon's frustration.  

Really well stated. 

The thing is, the problem was that the MANAGER, the guy who's job it is to make sure everyone is on the same page and is keeping everyone happy may have been the actual malcontent.  He was the guy at odds with the organization and he's publicly admitting that moving forward it has to be a team where the people above him see it his way.  

Maddon turned out to be the guy everyone tried to argue Mike Scioscia had become.  A dinosaur who refused to get with the times.

[cals]

55 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Well he sucked here so…

Did he?  I’d argue he did exceptional.  He somehow led this shit show of a team to almost a .500 record.  That’s remarkable.  

[cals]

1 hour ago, Swordsman78 said:

Not many thought that.  Maybe 1 or 2

Thank you for your revisionist history.

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, cals said:

Thank you for your revisionist history.

No sane person thought he was the only problem. But a lot of us see the problem that he was. 

[UndertheHalo]

He’s right about the organizational infrastructure which is obviously a disaster with the Angels.  It seems like the Angels don’t do the analytics shit well either.  And that’s part of infrastructure.  Anyways.  It’s too bad about the hardened feelings.  It is what it is.  He definitely wasn’t great here.  But the Angels problems weren’t and aren’t about Joe Maddon or Phil Nevin or Brad Ausmus or Mike Scioscia.  It’s not about any manager.   

[Angel Oracle]

10 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

He’s right about the organizational infrastructure which is obviously a disaster with the Angels.  It seems like the Angels don’t do the analytics shit well either.  And that’s part of infrastructure.  Anyways.  It’s too bad about the hardened feelings.  It is what it is.  He definitely wasn’t great here.  But the Angels problems weren’t and aren’t about Joe Maddon or Phil Nevin or Brad Ausmus or Mike Scioscia.  It’s not about any manager.   

 

[failos]

4 hours ago, AngelsWin.com said:

It’s not just bright, shiny objects – they have that.

He’s really showing his true colors here.

[BILLYMACREXANDGUBI]

Maddon is a washed up bum.

I liked the hire but held some reservations because of his goofball reputation. He was supposed to be a win now manager, not a take 3 years and then shit the bed a fifth of the way in to the season manager.

 

[stormngt]

Maddon is on to something here.

Analytics should not be treated like a religion.  Yet it has been.

Maddon also repeated his frustration with the way many front offices – not just the Angels – have put too much emphasis on analytics, at the expense of relying on the experience of the manager and coaches. He had said that in interviews with Southern California reporters on the day he was fired.

“It’s at the point where some GM should really just put a uniform on and go down to the dugout, or their main analytical membrane, he should go down to the dugout,” he said.

“That’s something that should be done. Because they try to work this middle man kind of a thing. And what happens is when the performance isn’t what they think it should be, it’s never about the acquisitional process. It’s always about the inability of coaches and managers to get the best out of a player. And that’s where this tremendous disconnect is formed.”

Edited August 23, 2022 by stormngt

[tdawg87]

21 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Maddon is on to something here.

Analytics should glnot be treated like a religion.  Yet it has been.

Maddon also repeated his frustration with the way many front offices – not just the Angels – have put too much emphasis on analytics, at the expense of relying on the experience of the manager and coaches. He had said that in interviews with Southern California reporters on the day he was fired.

“It’s at the point where some GM should really just put a uniform on and go down to the dugout, or their main analytical membrane, he should go down to the dugout,” he said.

“That’s something that should be done. Because they try to work this middle man kind of a thing. And what happens is when the performance isn’t what they think it should be, it’s never about the acquisitional process. It’s always about the inability of coaches and managers to get the best out of a player. And that’s where this tremendous disconnect is formed.”

What do you think constitutes "analytics"? Do you think the Dodgers agree with Maddon's line of thinking? The Rays? Yankees? 

Maybe the Rays did back in the day. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by tdawg87

[ScottT]

I'm nearing the same sentiment.  97% of the time, I'm right there with him.

[Slegnaac]

The #1 problem with the team this year is communication. 

We've seen it on the field.

We've seen it between the staff and the players.

It undoubtedly exists between the staff and the front office.

[tdawg87]

1 minute ago, Slegnaac said:

The #1 problem with the team this year is communication. 

We've seen it on the field.

We've seen it between the staff and the players.

It undoubtedly exists between the staff and the front office.

We need Curtis Pride to be our communications consultant.

[stormngt]

3 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

What do you think constitutes "analytics"? Do you think the Dodgers agree with Maddon's line of thinking? The Rays? Yankees? 

Are you sure we are applying Analytics the same way the Dodgers or rays?

Put too much in a players head and they will struggle.  It seems like many here think it's best just to play the game like it's video game.

I have seen many puzzling decisions that makes sense if the Analytics tell them.

Barria advanced analytics suck.  But excluding one year he has been good.

Why did both Maddon and Nevin devided not to bunt the winning run to third with no outs.  

Why do our shifts often get burned?

I have been suspicious is over reliance of sabremetrics.  Madden confirms my suspicion.

I don't know what the dogs and Rays do.  But it has to be different than what the Angels are doing.

[Slegnaac]

Just now, tdawg87 said:

We need Curtis Pride to be our communications consultant.

You may have something there. 

[ScottT]

The problem is the offense stinks. It's a combination of things.   Scouting, drafting, coaching (probably, though I still don't know how any of us would know), injuries, lack of talent and execution....  luck.  

[cysomeawfulpitcher]

[cals]

48 minutes ago, failos said:

He’s really showing his true colors here.

Yeah, says it like it is.  Miss the guy.

[ScottM]

He's right and you all know it. The org is improperly run top to bottom. 

[AngelsFaninGA]

I'm confused, does Nevin's constant scowling and yelling not count as emotion? If that doesn't fire the team up I don't know what will

[aznhockeyguy]

This doesn't make sense.  Maddon was at 2 organizations where they heavily used analytics in the Rays and then with the Cubs under Epstein.  Now all of a sudden he's against analytics based front offices when he doesn't find success with the Angels? 

[Jay]

6 hours ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

So the guy who walked someone with the bases loaded said teams shouldn’t rely on analytics? Oh ok. 
 

bitter ex girlfriend vibes

Or too many bong hits.

[TroutField]

1 hour ago, ScottSted said:

He's right and you all know it. The org is improperly run top to bottom. 

I don’t believe anyone is arguing that point. I think the point being made is how ironic it is that this is what he thinks , but didn’t bother to change any of it while manager of the Angels. 

[Angel Oracle]

I do want to see who Minasian hires as manager.   Will he hire a guy who believes in both analytics and tradition?   Will that guy hire GOOD coaches?   Will they and the baseball portion of the FO get on the same page?

Hoping it’s not Montgomery, but if it is, Montgomery better have a good traditional coaching staff in place, because I get Servais vibes from him.

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Angel Oracle

[Docwaukee]

4 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

What do you think constitutes "analytics"? Do you think the Dodgers agree with Maddon's line of thinking? The Rays? Yankees? 

Maybe the Rays did back in the day. 

no they didn't.  They had Friedman.  

The Angels needed a manager to act as the bridge between the players and the front office.  He's not wrong in that it was clear the two weren't on the same page.  And that's what happens when there is discord between who's in charge.  

Joe basically indicted himself that the way he thought the FO was trying to do things was wrong and that he was basically going to do it his own way.  

So yes, the franchise has leadership issues.   But no to executing baseball the way that Maddon was trying to do it.  

And also no to the crap roster that Minasian put together.  Joe took that crap roster and made it worse.  

The reason teams like the Dogs, Cards, Yanks, Rays, Braves etc are successful is that everyone is in lock step on how they would like to execute the vision of the FO from the owner down to the training staff.  

This is a top down failure and the shortcomings of everyone involved are relevant.  From Arte to Carpino, to Minasian, to Maddon.  

Joe failed at his job but someone else is responsible for letting him have control and execute his way that didn't align with what others were trying to do.