How much blame or success can we put on hitting and pitching coaches for player performance?

[Chuck]

There seems to be a contingent of Angels fans online that squarely put the blame on the hitting coach for the demise of Walsh, Stassi and Marsh this season, and point to the pitching coach in AAA of being the one who turned Detmers around, not Wise. There's other BS on Twitter as well, but they're pointing to the coaches as the culprit to poor performances by our players this year... completely disregard the successes from others (Ward, Rengifo, our entire pitching staff). 

What say you?

 

[BTH]

As a fan, it’s admittedly nearly impossible to know how much blame or credit the coaches do or don’t deserve.

BUT… the one way we as fans can get some idea of that, though, is by listening to what the players say.

We’ve heard Detmers credit Buddy Carlyle.

We’ve heard Suarez and Davidson credit Matt Wise.

We’ve heard Taylor Ward and Jared Walsh call out the Angels hitting philosophy.

 

You don’t praise someone who is doing a bad job. And you don’t call out someone who is doing a good job.

So that, to me, speaks volumes. When Perry makes the call on which coaches to keep/not keep, he’ll have had input from all the players in his exit interviews with them and I suspect that carries a lot of weight.

[UndertheHalo]

I don’t know that a lot of blame can be put on them for making guys who suck not suck.  Who can say really.  They definitely don’t make guys better.  So there’s definitely room for improvement there.  The thing that seems really bad to me is stuff like when Detmers says the AAA pitching coach identified an issue in one video session - fixed it and Detmers looks like a different pitcher.  Ok.  So why isn’t that guy the major league pitching coach ?  Also, is there zero communication in the organization.  Fucking no one could have pointed that out before ? Also, it’s really bad that none of the fucking idiots in the dug out see a guy tipping pitches.  They need Mike Trout out in center field to point that out.  
 

it just seems like from top to bottom the organization sucks at everything.  You hate to see it.  Fucking sucks. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

53 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

The thing that seems really bad to me is stuff like when Detmers says the AAA pitching coach identified an issue in one video session - fixed it and Detmers looks like a different pitcher.  Ok.  So why isn’t that guy the major league pitching coach ?  Also, is there zero communication in the organization.  Fucking no one could have pointed that out before ? 

I mean, hardly any of us are watching the games anymore. I couldn't fault the minor league guys for not watching the Angel games this year.

They probably just look up when Ohtani is batting, like we do.

[ten ocho recon scout]

This is a good topic. And it's hard to say what the problem is. For all we know it's both.

I was actually wondering this a few days ago. If you had to choose one over the other, do you want good scouts, or good coaches? 

It would seem to be Scouts (but I'm biased). But then again, you'd have to assume a mediocre scout could see a kid and say "he can hit, we should sign him". 

But a coach can only work with what he's given. If the player is flawed, I don't know that all the coaching in the world can fix that. Not to mention I'm sure all these guys have a slew of their own resources, like old coaches and teammates who give them tips when they struggle

[floplag]

Yeah, im one of them.  Coaching matters.
Yes these guys are pros with more natural ability to play the game in most cases than any of these coaches, but that cant see themselves they cant always make the adjustments without help.  Even Trout slumps, and i dont think anyone here would suggest any coach has more talent. 
Some people are great players, some are great coaches, few are both.  Do they make players better than they are, no, but they certainly see when those players are off or doing something different. 
The one thing i know to be true is that far too many guys have done better after leavings us, than they did with us.  Add to that a lot of guys that spend time on the farm and come back better from hearing different voices.

[UndertheHalo]

4 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I mean, hardly any of us are watching the games anymore. I couldn't fault the minor league guys for not watching the Angel games this year.

They probably just look up when Ohtani is batting, like we do.

I feel like it’s their job tho.  The organization shouldn’t be so atomized.  They should all exist to make the Angels win. 

[T.G.]

6 minutes ago, floplag said:

The one thing i know to be true is that far too many guys have done better after leavings us, than they did with us. 

That's a popular narrative among fans, but I'd like to see some hard evidence of that.  I'm not talking anecdotal information either... I'd like to see comprehensive proof of that.

[ThisismineScios]

It seems Matt Wise is improving as a pitching coach. But you can't really ignore the fact that he wasn't aware of 4-5 of his pitchers tipping their pitches. That's inexcusable. Ohtani, Lorenzen, Detmers, Peguero and those are just the ones we've found out about. He has gotten better though, so some credit is definitely due. 

For Jeremy Reed, I think without question you have to say he has not done a good job this year. He hasn't helped guys adjust, and when normally stoic guys go out of their way to call out the hitting philosophy, there's something there. The major regression from Walsh and Stassi, the lack of development of Adell and Marsh, and the overall drop in offensive production has to fall on him at least partly. I do think it's on the players, but a hitting coaches job is to make hitters better. I haven't seen any evidence of this. 

[T.G.]

I will take this a step further and question how coaching staffs are even assembled today.  Seems like MLB (for the most part) has moved away from managers selecting their staffs and now front offices are dictating who is going to be on the coaching staff.  I don't know if that's a good thing or not.  The front office seems to have more overall power than ever before - dictating lineups, shifts, etc.  I find it interesting when players are on the field, they have to refer to cards to tell them where to stand.

I have no idea what makes a good coach.  They seem to get much of the blame when things go bad and not much credit when things are going well.

Seems to me baseball has become more science and less art.  I don't think I like that very much.  They've taken a simple game and made it much more complex. All this talk about launch angles and spin rates is getting to be a bit much.  I know this might be a bit off topic, but I think coaches are coaching different things now.

 

[stormngt]

5 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

It seems Matt Wise is improving as a pitching coach. But you can't really ignore the fact that he wasn't aware of 4-5 of his pitchers tipping their pitches. That's inexcusable. Ohtani, Lorenzen, Detmers, Peguero and those are just the ones we've found out about. He has gotten better though, so some credit is definitely due. 

For Jeremy Reed, I think without question you have to say he has not done a good job this year. He hasn't helped guys adjust, and when normally stoic guys go out of their way to call out the hitting philosophy, there's something there. The major regression from Walsh and Stassi, the lack of development of Adell and Marsh, and the overall drop in offensive production has to fall on him at least partly. I do think it's on the players, but a hitting coaches job is to make hitters better. I haven't seen any evidence of this. 

Not to mention Trouts two worst slumps and Ward falling off the cliff.

[Jason]

There has to be some or teams wouldn't hire them. I think they are probably a little more important for younger players like Adell and Marsh but not so much for the veterans 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

2 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t know that a lot of blame can be put on them for making guys who suck not suck.  Who can say really.  They definitely don’t make guys better.  So there’s definitely room for improvement there.  The thing that seems really bad to me is stuff like when Detmers says the AAA pitching coach identified an issue in one video session - fixed it and Detmers looks like a different pitcher.  Ok.  So why isn’t that guy the major league pitching coach ?  Also, is there zero communication in the organization.  Fucking no one could have pointed that out before ? Also, it’s really bad that none of the fucking idiots in the dug out see a guy tipping pitches.  They need Mike Trout out in center field to point that out.  
 

it just seems like from top to bottom the organization sucks at everything.  You hate to see it.  Fucking sucks. 

Lack of Communication... 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

1 hour ago, ThisismineScios said:

It seems Matt Wise is improving as a pitching coach. But you can't really ignore the fact that he wasn't aware of 4-5 of his pitchers tipping their pitches. That's inexcusable. Ohtani, Lorenzen, Detmers, Peguero and those are just the ones we've found out about. He has gotten better though, so some credit is definitely due. 

For Jeremy Reed, I think without question you have to say he has not done a good job this year. He hasn't helped guys adjust, and when normally stoic guys go out of their way to call out the hitting philosophy, there's something there. The major regression from Walsh and Stassi, the lack of development of Adell and Marsh, and the overall drop in offensive production has to fall on him at least partly. I do think it's on the players, but a hitting coaches job is to make hitters better. I haven't seen any evidence of this. 

Or, that Lorenzen was over striding, landing on his heal, spinning out over his front side and over throwing (pushing the ball)... Which would either strain his elbow or shoulder.. HEY, lookie there...  60 Day DL.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

1 hour ago, ThisismineScios said:

It seems Matt Wise is improving as a pitching coach. But you can't really ignore the fact that he wasn't aware of 4-5 of his pitchers tipping their pitches. That's inexcusable. Ohtani, Lorenzen, Detmers, Peguero and those are just the ones we've found out about. He has gotten better though, so some credit is definitely due. 

For Jeremy Reed, I think without question you have to say he has not done a good job this year. He hasn't helped guys adjust, and when normally stoic guys go out of their way to call out the hitting philosophy, there's something there. The major regression from Walsh and Stassi, the lack of development of Adell and Marsh, and the overall drop in offensive production has to fall on him at least partly. I do think it's on the players, but a hitting coaches job is to make hitters better. I haven't seen any evidence of this. 

IF the philosophy is to take more pitches to go deeper in the count... Yet, teams Scouting prior to your series notice that they take until they are behind in the count then situationally you can go after them early on in the count and force them to chase out of the Zone or expand their Zone to protect up!

The hitters have tended to do that a lot this year.

Also, to go with that if you fail to adjust even the philosophy within the series. You will continue to get the same result... High Strike outs, low balls in play.. 

[tomsred]

For me I don't have anywhere near the information needed to judge if it's a coaching or player problem.  My feeling is it is mostly on the players to perform better.  I also think that it is the coaches who will eventually take the blame, they are much easier to ditch and replace than players.  Same can be said for managers.  

[ThisismineScios]

2 hours ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

IF the philosophy is to take more pitches to go deeper in the count... Yet, teams Scouting prior to your series notice that they take until they are behind in the count then situationally you can go after them early on in the count and force them to chase out of the Zone or expand their Zone to protect up!

The hitters have tended to do that a lot this year.

Also, to go with that if you fail to adjust even the philosophy within the series. You will continue to get the same result... High Strike outs, low balls in play.. 

I think this was the philosophy. Ward and Walsh expressed some frustration about taking too many pitches--fastballs ("heaters") especially--in the zone. It seems they were being coached to work the count. Maybe this works for Trout and Rendon, but not everyone can handle that well. And teams adjust, and you have to adjust as well. 

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t know that a lot of blame can be put on them for making guys who suck not suck.  Who can say really.  They definitely don’t make guys better.  So there’s definitely room for improvement there.  The thing that seems really bad to me is stuff like when Detmers says the AAA pitching coach identified an issue in one video session - fixed it and Detmers looks like a different pitcher.  Ok.  So why isn’t that guy the major league pitching coach ?  Also, is there zero communication in the organization.  Fucking no one could have pointed that out before ? Also, it’s really bad that none of the fucking idiots in the dug out see a guy tipping pitches.  They need Mike Trout out in center field to point that out.  
 

it just seems like from top to bottom the organization sucks at everything.  You hate to see it.  Fucking sucks. 

May just be as as simple as the minor league coach has video of his minor league performances while the MLB team may stick to the MLB stuff.  

[Inside Pitch]

4 hours ago, T.G. said:

That's a popular narrative among fans, but I'd like to see some hard evidence of that.  I'm not talking anecdotal information either... I'd like to see comprehensive proof of that.

People remember what they want to and every fan base makes this same exact argument.  The big exception being A's fans.

[Lou]

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

People remember what they want to and every fan base makes this same exact argument.  The big exception being A's fans.

Who?

[Inside Pitch]

41 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

I think this was the philosophy. Ward and Walsh expressed some frustration about taking too many pitches--fastballs ("heaters") especially--in the zone. It seems they were being coached to work the count. Maybe this works for Trout and Rendon, but not everyone can handle that well. And teams adjust, and you have to adjust as well. 

Ward can cry about it all he wants, but when he was raking he wasn't swinging at anything that wasn't a strike.   Reed is catching a lot of heat for Walsh sucking ass, but it was Reed that reworked his swing in the minors and essentially led to his breakout.

Walsh used to feast on off speed and breaking balls, now they are kryptonite to him.  If that's on Reed or something he's missing then sure fire him.  But, Walsh seems to find a way to get himself out left and right lately and I really do wonder if it's just an example of a guy who has failed to adjust to what pitchers are doing to him.

[Inside Pitch]

4 minutes ago, Lou said:

Who?

Three guys beating a drum and watching the Police dredge the bay for bodies.

[Stradling]

4 hours ago, T.G. said:

That's a popular narrative among fans, but I'd like to see some hard evidence of that.  I'm not talking anecdotal information either... I'd like to see comprehensive proof of that.

There really isn’t evidence of lots of guys having multiple good seasons after leaving us. 

[Stradling]

If you don’t give credit to coaches then you shouldn’t give them blame. I have no idea how much coaches in baseball impact players. If we look at the actual results this year there shouldn’t be a single person bitching about Wise, yet there are people constantly shitting on the dude. 

[ukyah]

6 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t know that a lot of blame can be put on them for making guys who suck not suck.  Who can say really.  They definitely don’t make guys better.  So there’s definitely room for improvement there.  The thing that seems really bad to me is stuff like when Detmers says the AAA pitching coach identified an issue in one video session - fixed it and Detmers looks like a different pitcher.  Ok.  So why isn’t that guy the major league pitching coach ?  Also, is there zero communication in the organization.  Fucking no one could have pointed that out before ? Also, it’s really bad that none of the fucking idiots in the dug out see a guy tipping pitches.  They need Mike Trout out in center field to point that out.  
 

it just seems like from top to bottom the organization sucks at everything.  You hate to see it.  Fucking sucks. 

 

these are exactly my thoughts.