Go all in - gut the farm and pay Ohtani.

[GrittyVeterans]

I said this in the offseason and kind of got laughed at by some, but this team ignored the offense too much to be successful. The Valazquez’ and Wade’s of the world can’t be in the lineup as starters if you want to win. Run prevention matters but so does run creation, and we absolutely have sucked at that. 
 

Time to swing a trade for a SS and real left fielder. Backup catcher is a must too. Trout/Ohtani/Rendon/Stassi/ward are the only guys on the roster right now that should be seen as everyday guys next season ImO. Everyone else needs to be re-evaluated. Guys like Rengifo and Fletcher are useful in the proper role. I don’t know about Adell and Walsh at this point

 

i don’t feel like the pitching is far off at all. They’ve got some real talent there for the first time in a long long time. It’s just a shame they have a bunch of hacks at the plate now

 

[Wisconsin27]

53 minutes ago, GrittyVeterans said:

I said this in the offseason and kind of got laughed at by some, but this team ignored the offense too much to be successful. The Valazquez’ and Wade’s of the world can’t be in the lineup as starters if you want to win. Run prevention matters but so does run creation, and we absolutely have sucked at that. 
 

Time to swing a trade for a SS and real left fielder. Backup catcher is a must too. Trout/Ohtani/Rendon/Stassi/ward are the only guys on the roster right now that should be seen as everyday guys next season ImO. Everyone else needs to be re-evaluated. Guys like Rengifo and Fletcher are useful in the proper role. I don’t know about Adell and Walsh at this point

 

i don’t feel like the pitching is far off at all. They’ve got some real talent there for the first time in a long long time. It’s just a shame they have a bunch of hacks at the plate now

 

Given all of our needs, I'm not sure we can not just "count on" Rengifo taking on a full-time role.  If we're going to be competitive next year, we'll (obviously) need Trout, Rendon, and Ohtani healthy.  That is the starting point for me.  With our limited resources, I think we'll also have to count on Ward in RF, Rengifo, and Stassi (as part of a platoon).  I'm in the minority here, but I still think Fletch played hurt last year and has a big role next year.  Hell, if we can find a solid 2B/SS vet for depth, I'm even okay with him at SS.

We have many needs; a partner for Stassi and Walsh and an actual player or two for INF depth.  I get the desire for a true starting SS, but where is going to come from if we still need a legitimate starter and some bp pieces?  So many holes that I if I had to sacrifice a position, it would be to avoid spending big on a SS.  Fletch is an ideal role player, but we might not be able to afford that luxury.  That's why I want him in the lineup every day the rest of the way to see what we've got.

And for all that is holly, can we f-ing stop with the Gosslein shit and get someone in there that we can at least hope might contribute in the future?  Anyone young and with potential, I don't care.  Season is lost, get someone a taste.  Jesus.

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

And it's not like we are the only team that deals with injuries. 

To be fair we've had some super duper bad luck ones... very key ones..

 

But you're right. Lots of teams do

 

It explains things... but you have to prepare for them.

 

Essentially, top tier guys like Trout are great for already deep teams.... the model we use, "he's like having 3 batters!" fails when he isn't hitting. Either because he's hurt or just had a bad night.

Probably the wrong place to say it, meant to make a thread about it. But watching dodger highlights at the gym (gross).....

 

There's a simple argument. I watched (this particular 2 game replay they had on that gym) several innings of no big hike run, no big knockout blow. But lots of well timed hits, bunched together.

And it creates the question.

Solid group of guys (bunched up base hits that score runs), or one or two stars (ohtani/trout) that give you a big hit a few times a week, but everyone else around them sucks (out after out after out until.you get to the solo home run)

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

The only things they've done right was draft Trout and signed Ohtani. Pretty much everything else has been between indifferent and catastrophic failure.

You're acting like signing Zach Cowart, then having to trade your first round draft pick to get rid of him is bad or something.

(To be fair that guy we traded may be a dud, I don't even remember who he is now. Paris or something like that. But the fact we yet again threw money at crap (cozart) and got nothing out of the draft lottery that comes once a year is in a nutshell how we ended up here)

 

I truly think they can still fix it. They just need to be ready to disregard emotions and do the right thing. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

18 minutes ago, Wisconsin27 said:

Given all of our needs, I'm not sure we can not just "count on" Rengifo taking on a full-time role.  If we're going to be competitive next year, we'll (obviously) need Trout, Rendon, and Ohtani healthy.  That is the starting point for me.  With our limited resources, I think we'll also have to count on Ward in RF, Rengifo, and Stassi (as part of a platoon).  I'm in the minority here, but I still think Fletch played hurt last year and has a big role next year.  Hell, if we can find a solid 2B/SS vet for depth, I'm even okay with him at SS.

We have many needs; a partner for Stassi and Walsh and an actual player or two for INF depth.  I get the desire for a true starting SS, but where is going to come from if we still need a legitimate starter and some bp pieces?  So many holes that I if I had to sacrifice a position, it would be to avoid spending big on a SS.  Fletch is an ideal role player, but we might not be able to afford that luxury.  That's why I want him in the lineup every day the rest of the way to see what we've got.

And for all that is holly, can we f-ing stop with the Gosslein shit and get someone in there that we can at least hope might contribute in the future?  Anyone young and with potential, I don't care.  Season is lost, get someone a taste.  Jesus.

 

This is why they won’t win next year barring some kind of Devine intervention.

[AngelsLakersFan]

7 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

To be fair we've had some super duper bad luck ones... very key ones..

 

But you're right. Lots of teams do

 

It explains things... but you have to prepare for them.

 

Essentially, top tier guys like Trout are great for already deep teams.... the model we use, "he's like having 3 batters!" fails when he isn't hitting. Either because he's hurt or just had a bad night.

Probably the wrong place to say it, meant to make a thread about it. But watching dodger highlights at the gym (gross).....

 

There's a simple argument. I watched (this particular 2 game replay they had on that gym) several innings of no big hike run, no big knockout blow. But lots of well timed hits, bunched together.

And it creates the question.

Solid group of guys (bunched up base hits that score runs), or one or two stars (ohtani/trout) that give you a big hit a few times a week, but everyone else around them sucks (out after out after out until.you get to the solo home run)

It’s part of the problem with the roster construction. They just aren’t built to survive anything beyond a minor injury. They actually struggle to even give guys days off without suffering consequences.

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

It’s part of the problem with the roster construction. They just aren’t built to survive anything beyond a minor injury. They actually struggle to even give guys days off without suffering consequences.

"Ohtani given the day off"

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

You're acting like signing Zach Cowart, then having to trade your first round draft pick to get rid of him is bad or something.

(To be fair that guy we traded may be a dud, I don't even remember who he is now. Paris or something like that. But the fact we yet again threw money at crap (cozart) and got nothing out of the draft lottery that comes once a year is in a nutshell how we ended up here)

 

I truly think they can still fix it. They just need to be ready to disregard emotions and do the right thing. 

They probably could fix it but they won’t. Just entertaining the thought of trading draft picks for money is putting you in the category of the Pirates in terms of organizational philosophy. Salary dumping useful players instead of paying their salary in exchange for better prospects is the opposite of what the Dodgers do.

 They fundamentally are approaching the problem wrong.

[ten ocho recon scout]

17 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

They probably could fix it but they won’t. Just entertaining the thought of trading draft picks for money is putting you in the category of the Pirates in terms of organizational philosophy. Salary dumping useful players instead of paying their salary in exchange for better prospects is the opposite of what the Dodgers do.

 They fundamentally are approaching the problem wrong.

Yeah, that's a huge problem. On the one hand, Arte spends a TON. I roll my eyes at anyone who denies that. Anyone calling him cheap needs to be in his shoes for a minute. And realize that he lost a billion dollars on bad contracts in the past decade. 

 

Billion

But that's one area I'd like to see him spend more on. (Moron!). Maybe take that old playbook move of taking someone else's bad contract and getting some bona-fide can't miss prospect out of it.

We already waste enough on our own signings. Maybe swoop in and take on someone else's bad choice if we can get something out of it.

[ThisismineScios]

I think this is the lowest I’ve seen Angels fans in a long time, and it’s due to having two Mega stars, a huge contract that can’t stay on the field, and a lack of young guys taking the next step. For as much as we think Perry or Arte live in their ivory towers, I think they sense that. Im curious how the end of the year interviews go and if they truly get how frustrated and completely disheartened the fan base is. I don’t get the sense that Perry will walking into Tempe having signed Kike Hernandez and Tyler Anderson and telling everyone this is a team on the cusp. And Arte is seemingly at his breaking point because attendance is going to finish very low, he’s on the verge of losing Ohtani because we aren’t good, and Mike Trout will have to face another offseason of no playoff questions.  What does Arte do at his breaking point? I am really curious to see. But Perry and Tamin aren’t idiots, and have both been a part of championship caliber organizations. 

[Revad]

I’d settle for one trade for an impact player- we should have the pieces for that.  Either a SS or a TOR starter.  There would be an advantage in trading for pitching since Arte seems reluctant to sign starters to multi-year deals.  On the other hand, how to get an established above average SS without paying $25M a year for eight years?  So trading for a SS also makes sense.  Seems like one big trade is about all the farm could take though.

After that one trade, the rest FA.  No signing QO guys, we need that second pick to restock.

[Second Base]

I'm in the opposite camp. Even if the Angels do as you say, they're still a wild card team at best and Ohtani signs elsewhere because he won't want to sign with a team that doesn't have a future. 

The Angels window to win, if the prospects develop correctly, including Adell, is probably in 2025. That just doesn't align with Ohtani's timeline with the team. 

The time has come to sell Ohtani for a package of four or five high-end double A prospects. You combine that package with the likes of Neto, O'Hoppe, DiChiara, Bachman, Bush, Rodriguez, and this team gets exciting again in 2024 and competitive again in 2025, and a force to be reckoned with in 2026. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Second Base

[Swordsman78]

13 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

This is why they won’t win next year barring some kind of Devine intervention.

Please intervene.

[johndw52]

I can help too!

[Inside Pitch]

On 8/7/2022 at 1:10 PM, Docwaukee said:

Ok, so hear me out because this might sound a little crazy at first.  Let me preface this that it kinda goes against every bone in my body.  I love the idea of building the team through the farm and creating a sustainable model of success for years and years.   Like what we used to do.  

But we've got to break the cycle somehow.  Because no matter what's been done, the timing is off and they end up missing players or ignoring deficiencies in key areas.  We've been going through this half-assed rebuild/try to compete circle jerk for the last 5-6 years at least.  

And then we end up with some sort of combo of generational players plus guys who still need to cut their teeth but have potential, to guys we pick up off waivers that we draw a moustache in hopes that we can get them to be someone they've never been.  

Many have proposed a traditional rebuild, but those suck.   They take 5 years.  Or longer.  Trade Ohtani for a bunch of guys 'close to the majors'.  And that's part of the problem.  We keep needing certain guys to be better than they're ready to be.  We needed Ward and Sandoval and others to be as good as they are now...but like two years ago.  Now we're going to jack around with Adell, Rengifo, Silseth, Davidson, Suarez etc.  And then we're gonna wait for Neto and Bachman and Ohoppe to contribute?  When?  2-3 years from now?  

We have about 100 guys in this org right now with actual present or future value.  And they're on like 25 different clocks.  Align the talent cycles (yes, I'm waiting for everyone's awesome jokes on this).  

So I have no real idea how to do it, but I'll make something up.  

Trout, Ohtani, Rendon aren't going anywhere.  I would give Shohei a monster deal for 24/25 with an opt out after.  I think it's the only way you might keep him for now.  

I'm for sure keeping Sandoval and Detmers.  And Taylor Ward unless someone gives me an oddly high return that I could then flip for a better player.  But he's pretty good.  

I'm also keeping Stassi.  Premium catchers don't typically come available.  Upgrade would be tough and cost a shit ton.  But for the love of everything decent and holy, spend the damn money on a quality backup.  If I hear Suzuki's name in reference to this team at any point for next year?  Then I'll already know we've failed.  

Walsh is actually an easy one for me.  Keep him unless another team thinks more highly of him than I do.  But if I see guys like Matt Duffy, Jose Rojas or David MacKinnon (yes, I know he's an A which is why I stated 'like') anywhere near the field as his backup?  Again, that would mean we've failed.  

I can probably live with Fletch at a super ut.  If he get's more than 300 PA then Minasian didn't do his job.  

Rengifo is my coin flip.  I'm inclined to hand him the 2b job.  But, he could end up very useful and we have to trust him to be as good as he is now.  

Everything else I am doing is to get as much talent on this team as possible for the next 2-3 years (after this year) without making monster financial commitments.  Which means...

likely gutting the farm to make this happen.  

We'll need a SS, very good corner OFer, IF and OF depth including a very good contingency plan for 1b.  Plus one top of the rotation starter with 2+ years of control and several pen pieces.  

If Arte wants to increase payroll some then great.  But I would absolutely NOT bring in anyone on more than a 4 year contract and even that's pushing it.  So I'm getting guys like Judge and Trea Turner out of my head.  

So give it two years.  Maybe 3 if you can pull it off.  And if it doesn't work after the first two, we can trade Ohtani (who won't have as much value because he'll cost a lot and have opt outs) and then at that point, you can also trade away anything of value that you've acquired for that window.  

But we really need to stop mixing and matching and praying because it's not working.  If recycling the same old method is the route they choose instead then so be it.  

In some ways, Minasian may have already started prepping for this by the moves he made at the deadline.  I didn't really like it at the time but perhaps it's gonna be more helpful than I realized.  

Everything you've written here is viable and I agree something needs to change.  The annual let's throw a hail mary with ___________, and see if he reverts to his form of XX many years ago needs to end.  

I personally would be against gutting the farm mostly because I believe the guys that would garner the most interest are so far away that their value is somewhat dampened by the proximity, teams will pay less for volatility.  But 100% they need to be going all in. The problem is, they have been in a position to go ALL IN now for two years and the guy that ultimately makes that decision refuses to budge off his pre-established line in the sand.  Maybe the threat of losing Ohtani finally gets him to move off that line, dunno.

The reality is they absolutely need to go all in ..  I think most teams with the Angels revenue streams would be willing to take the risk and then blow it up if it didn't work (Red Sox did this with great effect), but the problem there is again ... the guy that ultimately would make that decision claims those types of tear downs are not in his DNA.

The key to any plan moving forward is to convince Arte.   That's one hell of an obstacle at this point.

[DCAngelsFan]

On 8/8/2022 at 12:03 AM, ten ocho recon scout said:

Solid group of guys (bunched up base hits that score runs), or one or two stars (ohtani/trout) that give you a big hit a few times a week, but everyone else around them sucks (out after out after out until.you get to the solo home run)

Sounds like our 2002 lineup - clusters of hits, with no superstars, but most everyone sporting a near-.800 OPS - the lineup wore pitchers out, because a rally could start anywhere - no top-heavy lineup, just a bunch of grinders who got on base, and wore pitchers out.  

It's been sort of emblematic of the Arte tenure - a couple / three stars, and some assortment of scrubs.  (I know, I exaggerate.)  

But I suspect we've become enamored of the 3-outcome kind of player in scouting, and what we need are guys with strike zone judgement and good bat-to-ball skills - OBP is still a thing.  

 

[T.G.]

I'm just a little tired of the J.B. Shuck, Johnny Giovatella, Reggie Willits types of guys the Angels seem to sign every year... Fans love them, but they don't move the needle and end up playing a bigger role than they should.  Maybe I'm exaggerating some... but you get the point.

[Blarg]

Willits was from the Angels minor leagues. 

[Angels 1961]

If halos gut the farm what will happen to Angel hope dial

[eligrba]

10 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Everything you've written here is viable and I agree something needs to change.  The annual let's throw a hail mary with ___________, and see if he reverts to his form of XX many years ago needs to end.  

I personally would be against gutting the farm mostly because I believe the guys that would garner the most interest are so far away that their value is somewhat dampened by the proximity, teams will pay less for volatility.  But 100% they need to be going all in. The problem is, they have been in a position to go ALL IN now for two years and the guy that ultimately makes that decision refuses to budge off his pre-established line in the sand.  Maybe the threat of losing Ohtani finally gets him to move off that line, dunno.

The reality is they absolutely need to go all in ..  I think most teams with the Angels revenue streams would be willing to take the risk and then blow it up if it didn't work (Red Sox did this with great effect), but the problem there is again ... the guy that ultimately would make that decision claims those types of tear downs are not in his DNA.

The key to any plan moving forward is to convince Arte.   That's one hell of an obstacle at this point.

Hypothetical:  Assume the farm is gutted, how long before the Angels return to having their current farm depth?

[eligrba]

On 8/8/2022 at 11:08 AM, Swordsman78 said:

Please intervene.

[Swordsman78]

54 minutes ago, eligrba said:

Apologize for not responding.  @Lou only tolerates incindeary posts when they are directed at me. 

[Lou]

1 minute ago, Swordsman78 said:

Apologize for not responding.  @Lou only tolerates incindeary posts when they are directed at me. 

Actually, people who have proven over the years that they aren't here to merely be a jerk towards other posters are cut a bit more slack. 

Think about whether or not you truly want to be a member of this community.

Thank you. 

[Swordsman78]

2 minutes ago, Lou said:

Actually, people who have proven over the years that they aren't here to merely be a jerk towards other posters are cut a bit more slack. 

Think about whether or not you truly want to be a member of this community.

Thank you. 

Got it. 

[ThisismineScios]

What does gutting mean? Who is untouchable?