Official 2021-22 Hot Stove League Thread.

[Lou]

Moving this to the Worst Argument Ever Forum.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Pancake Bear said:

Lol. This is just sad. You seriously have such a fixation on Eppler.  

Yep. And he calls me out for defending him when he’s more fixated on him than I am. 

[mmc]

Just now, Stradling said:

I didn’t. I called it a multi year deal, which it is. You are the one that is delusional.  

So you agree that his philosophy was to sign short team deals both here and in New York, and here he chose crap and in NY, he chose players with actual upside.  Glad we’re in agreement 

[mmc]

Just now, Stradling said:

Yep. And he calls me out for defending him when he’s more fixated on him than I am. 

You respond to every post made on the site that’s critical of him lmao

[Stradling]

Just now, mmc said:

So you agree that his philosophy was to sign short team deals both here and in New York, and here he chose crap and in NY, he chose players with actual upside.  Glad we’re in agreement 

Nope. 

[Stradling]

Just now, mmc said:

You respond to every post made on the site that’s critical of him lmao

Yes I respond to all of your posts about him.  I respond to you.  I respond to you.  See how that works. You fixate, I respond. 

[mmc]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Nope. 

Then what is it lmao

[Stradling]

Just now, mmc said:

Then what is it lmao

He signed one year deals here and multi year deals there. By the end of this off season he will have given out more multi year deals as a Met GM than four years as the Angels GM. He’s one away from tying. 

[mmc]

Just now, Stradling said:

He signed one year deals here and multi year deals there. By the end of this off season he will have given out more multi year deals as a Met GM than four years as the Angels GM. He’s one away from tying. 

The argument was that he wasn’t allowed to do the same things here that he was in New York.  So are you saying Arte told him he wasn’t allowed to go more than one year on anyone unless they were Cozart, Valbuena, or Rendon, and none for any pitchers, but Minasian comes in and gets permission to give 2 years to Loup?  Or that Arte said he had to sign the names that he did?  Because if not, then how is the situation any different?

[Docwaukee]

19 minutes ago, mmc said:

The argument was that he wasn’t allowed to do the same things here that he was in New York.  So are you saying Arte told him he wasn’t allowed to go more than one year on anyone unless they were Cozart, Valbuena, or Rendon, and none for any pitchers, but Minasian comes in and gets permission to give 2 years to Loup?  Or that Arte said he had to sign the names that he did?  Because if not, then how is the situation any different?

I appreciate that you keep the board up to date with the latest mlb news, but you really are making yourself look dumb right now because of some weird hatred for Eppler due to your own lack of insight and understanding of how baseball works for a GM.  

[UndertheHalo]

58 minutes ago, mmc said:

The situation isn’t different.  Eppler had money to spend here and in New York and ended up whiffing on all of them and ending up with dogshit year after year.  Whereas Minasian actually was aggressive about getting the upgrade he wanted (Syndergaard)

I think you’ve really mischaracterized what all is and was going on with the Angels.  Very sad imo. 

[mmc]

3 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I appreciate that you keep the board up to date with the latest mlb news, but you really are making yourself look dumb right now because of some weird hatred for Eppler due to your own lack of insight and understanding of how baseball works for a GM.  

I don’t like the guy, but I really don’t care if anyone else likes him, I just think people are seriously in denial of his shortcomings.  If people feel he accomplished more good here then he did bad, fine, but I don’t see how it can be argued that his track record in free agency here was crap and he went after very low upside players.  Whereas in New York, he’s already made much better deals for players that could actually be useful.  I have no idea why people are saying “the situation is different” in regards to this fact.  If you want to talk about his tenure as a whole, sure Ill agree the situations are very different but I see absolutely no reason he couldn’t make Canha/Escobar type deals here, and the only response I’ve gotten as to why is that “it was different here”.  

[UndertheHalo]

3 minutes ago, mmc said:

I don’t like the guy, but I really don’t care if anyone else likes him, I just think people are seriously in denial of his shortcomings.  If people feel he accomplished more good here then he did bad, fine, but I don’t see how it can be argued that his track record in free agency here was crap and he went after very low upside players.  Whereas in New York, he’s already made much better deals for players that could actually be useful.  I have no idea why people are saying “the situation is different” in regards to this fact.  If you want to talk about his tenure as a whole, sure Ill agree the situations are very different but I see absolutely no reason he couldn’t make Canha/Escobar type deals here, and the only response I’ve gotten as to why is that “it was different here”.  

Why do you think he’s decided to get less shitty guys now ? Has he grown or something ? Or is it more likely that he’s been given a more free hand ? 

[mmc]

2 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Why do you think he’s decided to get less shitty guys now ? Has he grown or something ? Or is it more likely that he’s been given a more free hand ? 

So you think Arte essentially told him everyone he needed to sign.  I mean I don’t agree with this take (at least not to this degree) but I can at least understand where you’re coming from if this is how you see it.

[HanfordGuy]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

Arte is in to scat porn.

[Inside Pitch]

8 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

What do you not like, out of curiosity, about stroman? And not saying that to imply anything, just curios.

@Inside Pitch hasnt chimed in either, so it makes me anxious

I actually have commented on it in a different thread. 

I believe Ray has the biggest upside of the players available but he's got some possible red flags and might be the biggest risk financially., Stro probably the surest bet but he's the high floor low ceiling guy.  I'm unsure what to make of Gausman.  He was basically a 4.50 ERA guy for half the season and benefited from a very strong defense and a great pitcher's park. The other guys are all at the extreme end of the age spectrum or carry significant potential injury risk.   If I had to pick one guy, I'd pin my hopes on the adage that control is a veteran skill and trust in Ray's skill set but he may be a poor fit given how heavily LHed the rotation could possibly be -- I'm not a huge believer in that really mattering but I've also never actually taken the time to study it so mine would be an ignorant opinion.   Be it Ray, Stro, or Gausman they will end up paying a ton.

Mostly I just think it's a bad FA class for pitchers, bad may be too strong a term, it's just kinda meh given what the costs might be.  Minasian hasn't done anything yet as GM to make me doubt he will make what he believes to be the most well reasoned choice, and yet no matter how measured and intelligent an approach he takes he could find himself with a mistake on his hands, yay free agency!!!  The worst thing IMO is that I genuinely believe he's been painted into a corner and he needs to make a statement type move if for no other reason to silence critics of the franchise and try to put certain narratives to bed. They simply can't have another year of adding bottom rung guys to the rotation.  Biggest mistake he could make IMO is to be afraid to make a mistake and risk not having the money to re-sign Ohtani.  Let that be Arte's legacy and cross to bear, he needs to just try to win and make it so Sho wants to be an Angel and Trout doesn't regret committing to being one long term.

What I don't want, even more now that we are seeing what guys like Escobar and Cahna (however you spell his name), is for him to mortage the future (Adell and Marsh), to deepen the rotation..

Someone give me a cookie I wrote a book and didn't once go off about the defense.

[UndertheHalo]

23 minutes ago, mmc said:

So you think Arte essentially told him everyone he needed to sign.  I mean I don’t agree with this take (at least not to this degree) but I can at least understand where you’re coming from if this is how you see it.

No, not exactly that.  But I think Arte is a control freak that requires every moderately significant thing that happens get cleared by him directly.  I think he insists on being involved in most acquisitions of note.  I also think he kept a pretty tight leash on the payroll for most of epplers tenure.  All of which dramatically impacted the guys we could get.  I mean recall.  When they were semi in the mix in what was it ? 2018 ? he went out and got Upton after the deadline.  Probably on account of Arte giving the green light.  I think that if we knew the team was bad, Arte and the Angels front office knew.  He wasn’t going to open up the purse strings for a shitty team.  So Eppler was primarily tasked with righting the ship.  And as far the situation we keep saying you aren’t putting into proper context. Again, for a good portion of Epplers tenure we had bad players all over the diamond.  It’s unreasonable to think they could just spend their way out of that.  They did not have enough guys internally to make it work.  Compound that with the terrible scouting and development infrastructure.  It’s just a recipe for failure.  

and that’s not to completely absolve Eppler, he obviously had some bad misses in free agency.  But given the circumstances mentioned above.  He was pretty likely to get involved in some bad moves.  It’s not like the Angels made any of these guys better.  That’s probably worth pondering.  Why do guys come here and play badly ? Seems like a theme.  Can’t put that on the GM entirely. 

anyway, the Mets are a different situation.  Cohen is a different guy.  Weird and looney in his own ways.  Again, the Mets payroll right now is $225 million.  That’s pretty different for Eppler. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by UndertheHalo

[Inside Pitch]

8 hours ago, Dochalo said:

and one of the main reasons is that I don't think the pitching staff is as bad as people think.  We've got some starter depth but the MIF sucks.  We have a much better chance of sustaining a loss to Sandoval than what would happen if Rendon struggles.  The mets just got a 2-3 WAR player for 12m.  To get Stroman, a possible 2.5-3 WAR pitcher, it's gonna cost almost doubt that 

its the def...  ahhh nevermind.

[Docwaukee]

15 minutes ago, mmc said:

I don’t like the guy, but I really don’t care if anyone else likes him, I just think people are seriously in denial of his shortcomings.  If people feel he accomplished more good here then he did bad, fine, but I don’t see how it can be argued that his track record in free agency here was crap and he went after very low upside players.  Whereas in New York, he’s already made much better deals for players that could actually be useful.  I have no idea why people are saying “the situation is different” in regards to this fact.  If you want to talk about his tenure as a whole, sure Ill agree the situations are very different but I see absolutely no reason he couldn’t make Canha/Escobar type deals here, and the only response I’ve gotten as to why is that “it was different here”.  

you should really reread what you wrote and ask yourself the same question.  What's more likely?  That he has more freedom to make better moves because of fewer restrictions and more resources(whether financial or prospect driven) due to ownership or that he suddenly had an epiphany about wanting to sign good players instead of shitty ones now that he's with the mets? 

And no one is arguing that he made good moves with the money he did have.  It's why he got fired and what made him the wrong man for the job.  But the franchise was headed to a black hole and he left it far better than what he started with.   He had so many holes to fill each year with so few resources to do so that he had to go down a very difficult path and he did so poorly.  For sure he could have done better in that regard. 

And I like what Minasian has done so far but there is no real indication that he doesn't have the same restrictions.  I like that he's been aggressive on pitching so far but he could sign one of the top pitchers and his money could go dry.  If he's allow to take payroll to $200 mil, would that show you it's a different situation than Eppler was dealing with?     

[Docwaukee]

and value is value.  I'm becoming a broken damn record on this but I can't stop mentioning it.  If they add a top pitcher and just stop there then it'll be more of the same.  People will laud him for actually attempting to get pitching but they'll fail in other ways if he decides to go satisfy the masses and his owner and his manager instead of building a well rounded and complete ball club where you can overcome a bit of bad luck and some poor performances.  

[Inside Pitch]

12 hours ago, Pancake Bear said:

Yes, because the Mets' shopping spree today and the Angels' past reticence are both solely due to Eppler being a coward before and finding his spine now.

Its ownership, you donut. It has jack all to do with Eppler. 

OMG stop making excuses for Eppler's cowardice!!!   

Pay no mind that his first act as GM was to "aggressively' trade the only two prospects he had for a SS most people here wanted no part of. 

He CHOSE not to spend, he totally could have!!!  His lack of FA moves early on had NOTHING, absolute nothing to do with the reality that the 2016 roster he inherited had 46.5 mil of dead money... and that's before taking AP's 25 mil or Weaver's 20 mil that year into consideration.  That's 86 million outstanding for Wilson, Weaver, Hamilton and Pujols -- as a group those 4 combined for 0.9 bWAR... Meanwhile the SS that nobody wanted (making 6 mil) made 4.4 bWAR that season.  

Who cares if CJ Wilson was owed 20 mil, and Hamilton 52 Mil, or that neither guy would ever actually play a single inning for Eppler.  What difference does it make they still owed AP his 170 mil...  Perry "Braveheart" Minasian had no problem cutting AP loose in his final season when he was due 30 mil -- damn reality, I see no difference.   

Edit: forgot about good ole Huston Street and his 15 mil for 16 and 17.

2016 was a special time..   Dead money.  Bad contracts.  No farm system..  No LFer, No C, no 3B, a AAAA 2B.  No payroll flexibility, and the need to be able to resign a generational talent..  Noooo problem!  He should have plopped his teabag on Arte's forehead and said "Listen Missy, I'm the guy calling the shots now!"

Meanwhile in NYC, you have an owner giving Eppler blank checks and telling him to go get it done.   I see no differences between the two situations and anyone who disagrees is just an obsessive Eppler fanboy.   

 

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, mmc said:

The situation isn’t different.  Eppler had money to spend here and in New York and ended up whiffing on all of them and ending up with dogshit year after year.  Whereas Minasian actually was aggressive about getting the upgrade he wanted (Syndergaard)

LOL...   

2 hours ago, mmc said:

What do you call 2 year deals for Canha and Escobar?

I call it 35-40 million more than Eppler was allowed to spend in year 1 and 2 of his tenure as the GM of the Angels combined..  

[Lou]

I'm failing to see what any of this has to do with us putting up 62 points and 609 yards on southern cal.

Focus!

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, mmc said:

What am I ignoring?  Eppler blew substantial money every year in free agency here, and he alone is responsible for choosing the crap he thought was worth paying for.  Canha, Marte, and Escobar will be making around 40 million this season combined,

Homework assignment -- Please list all the FA signings in 2016 and 2017.  Add them all up, tell us what you came up with.  

2 hours ago, mmc said:

Epp gave that much money to have Teheran, Harvey, Allen, and Cahill to all be below replacement level here, when everyone knew they had very limited upside as free agent signings.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2019-top-50-free-agents/

I was very vocally against Harvey/Allen and went on record regarding what I viewed as Teheran's red flags prior to ANY of them being signed...  I don't think I ever had an opinion on Cahill prior to his being signed but that was less to do with how I would have predicted he would perform and everything to do with what I viewed as his inability to stay healthy. 

But when you say "everyone knew" you're ignoring what sites like FGs had to say about them and Cahill.  Hindsight is 20/20.   

[mmc]

1 hour ago, UndertheHalo said:

No, not exactly that.  But I think Arte is a control freak that requires every moderately significant thing that happens get cleared by him directly.  I think he insists on being involved in most acquisitions of note.  I also think he kept a pretty tight leash on the payroll for most of epplers tenure.  All of which dramatically impacted the guys we could get.  I mean recall.  When they were semi in the mix in what was it ? 2018 ? he went out and got Upton after the deadline.  Probably on account of Arte giving the green light.  I think that if we knew the team was bad, Arte and the Angels front office knew.  He wasn’t going to open up the purse strings for a shitty team.  So Eppler was primarily tasked with righting the ship.  And as far the situation we keep saying you aren’t putting into proper context. Again, for a good portion of Epplers tenure we had bad players all over the diamond.  It’s unreasonable to think they could just spend their way out of that.  They did not have enough guys internally to make it work.  Compound that with the terrible scouting and development infrastructure.  It’s just a recipe for failure.  

and that’s not to completely absolve Eppler, he obviously had some bad misses in free agency.  But given the circumstances mentioned above.  He was pretty likely to get involved in some bad moves.  It’s not like the Angels made any of these guys better.  That’s probably worth pondering.  Why do guys come here and play badly ? Seems like a theme.  Can’t put that on the GM entirely. 

anyway, the Mets are a different situation.  Cohen is a different guy.  Weird and looney in his own ways.  Again, the Mets payroll right now is $225 million.  That’s pretty different for Eppler. 

I don't know why you think I'm insinuating he was supposed to spend our way to contention.  My point is I don't think he ever was aggressive, or went for upside, and year after year we paid the price for it and he never learned.