2021-22 CBA Negotiation/Lockout Thread (DEAL IS AGREED TO)

[AngelsLakersFan]

9 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

this is kinda what I'm saying.  the teams have recognized the economics and the result is a leveling of comp.  The CBT is one factor but it's already a factor and even though it's increased (albeit not by much), it's had almost zero impact.  

the main thing about the CBT is that is has a minimal impact on most of the league and allows for much greater flexibility to a select few.  

Look, the players are locked out and still getting taken to the cleaners. They've folded on most of the things that really matter outside of the bonus pool - things that force the cheaper teams to spend more money or incentivize winning, and they are holding out for a raise in the CBT that doesn't even track with inflation. Are their priorities in the right place? Probably not, but it feels like they are left with their smallest ask left on the table and not much else beyond complete capitulation.

[Dtwncbad]

19 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

It's like agreeing to a 6 day work week when you've been trying to negotiate a higher salary floor for new hires.

Except going from a 5 day work week to a 6 day work week increase your work days by 20% and reduces your off days by 50%.

A 14 team postseason really has no meaningful effect on the number of days these guys work, and any “extra” work days represent an opportunity to win a championship.

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Except going from a 5 day work week to a 6 day work week increase your work days by 20% and reduces your off days by 50%.

A 14 team postseason really has no meaningful effect on the number of days these guys work, and any “extra” work days represent an opportunity to win a championship.

It represents an extra week of work for an additional 52 players. The big issue is that is increases randomness into the post season, which will discourage teams from spending.

[Dtwncbad]

40 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

It represents an extra week of work for an additional 52 players. The big issue is that is increases randomness into the post season, which will discourage teams from spending.

Not being cute but the “extra work” part just seems silly.  If that were really an issue would the players like to just eliminate the entire postseason (so none of them would be burdened with “extra work”) and just hand the World Series trophy to the team with the best regular season record?

[Taylor]

Dtwn knows what's better for the players than the players do.

[Angelsfan1984]

Clearly he has insight into everything about everyone and we’re all wasting our time because he has it all figured out. Might as well change his name to Jesus Christ and call it a day. 

[Angelsfan1984]

Well since you know everything can you explain quantum mechanics and the origin of the quark. Also I need to know how to pick a watermelon at the store. I keep knocking but nobody ever answers.

[AngelsLakersFan]

24 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Not being cute but the “extra work” part just seems silly.  If that were really an issue would the players like to just eliminate the entire postseason (so none of them would be burdened with “extra work”) and just hand the World Series trophy to the team with the best regular season record?

Maybe it's not a big deal but it is extra work for them, thus why agreeing to it is a concession.

[Lou]

2 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Maybe it's not a big deal but it is extra work for them, thus why agreeing to it is a concession.

If it's so bad, why do players continually strive to play for playoff teams? Plus, they get paid for the postseason games. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, Lou said:

If it's so bad, why do players continually strive to play for playoff teams? Plus, they get paid for the postseason games. 

They get to vote on post season shares, but they aren't compensated in correlation to their contracts.

Also these guys are competitive. They want to compete for a championship, elevating the value of being the 7th best team in your league probably isn't moving the needle for them on that front, especially when it devalues being the best.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Look, the players are locked out and still getting taken to the cleaners. They've folded on most of the things that really matter outside of the bonus pool - things that force the cheaper teams to spend more money or incentivize winning, and they are holding out for a raise in the CBT that doesn't even track with inflation. Are their priorities in the right place? Probably not, but it feels like they are left with their smallest ask left on the table and not much else beyond complete capitulation.

true.  Although I'd rather see them dig their feet in on a larger bonus pool and forego the CBT threshold.  It get's them to a better spot more quickly in the future and if anything is going to set a tone of arb...

[Lou]

2 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

They get to vote on post season shares, but they aren't compensated in correlation to their contracts.

Also these guys are competitive. They want to compete for a championship, elevating the value of being the 7th best team in your league probably isn't moving the needle for them on that front, especially when it devalues being the best.

I disagree. Players kill to get into the postseason. That's why they fight for a wildcard spot. After all, they're competitive.

And they still get paid. I doubt they care if that money is part of their contract. 

[Docwaukee]

the pool of money that ends up to players from a playoff game is less than the pool of money they get for a regular season game.   The owners also make more revenue during those games.  So it's clearly more of a benefit to the latter.  But it decreases the importance of the regular season so why even bother having 162 games at that point.  If they're gonna increase the number of playoff spots then have fewer regular season games and more per playoff series which would probably take forever and there would be less interest.   

[Lou]

It's a benefit for both.

[Lou]

I never heard a player complain about being on the final team to make the playoffs after they added wildcard teams to the postseason. You guys are making an argument that just isn't a reality.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, Lou said:

I never heard a player complain about being on the final team to make the playoffs after they added wildcard teams to the postseason. You guys are making an argument that just isn't a reality.  

So how far are you going to take this? It seems like you are saying that all players feel that the experience of participating in the post season should be compensation enough. At what point is that not the case? Should the players be in favor of all 30 teams making the post season and the tournament lasting through February? 

[Lou]

The Braves had the worst record of any team in the postseason last year. 

[Lou]

Just now, AngelsLakersFan said:

So how far are you going to take this? It seems like you are saying that all players feel that the experience of participating in the post season should be compensation enough. At what point is that not the case? Should the players be in favor of all 30 teams making the post season and the tournament lasting through February? 

No, I'm saying that all players strive to make the playoffs. It's their goal every year - and they get paid for it. 

To answer your second question, are you saying no teams should make the playoffs since they don't want to play additional games?

[Lou]

16 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

there would be less interest.   

To whom? 

The players?  No.

The fans?  Probably not. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, Lou said:

No, I'm saying that all players strive to make the playoffs. It's their goal every year - and they get paid for it. 

To answer your second question, are you saying no teams should make the playoffs since they don't want to play additional games?

I don't think lowering the bar and watering down the achievement of a goal is a big selling point to competitive people.

If all things were equal I think a significant percentage of MLB players would be fine with a championship being crowned through some process that didn't include playoffs, assuming there was some semblance of an even playing field. It's not really practical given the number of teams and the geography of the league.

[Lou]

Just now, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't think lowering the bar and watering down the achievement of a goal is a big selling point to competitive people.

If all things were equal I think a significant percentage of MLB players would be fine with a championship being crowned through some process that didn't include playoffs, assuming there was some semblance of an even playing field. It's not really practical given the number of teams and the geography of the league.

I don't. At all. 

Ask the Braves if they would have preferred not making the playoffs because they ended up 18 games behind the best team in the league. 

Again, players strive all year to make the postseason. To say they don't is just wrong. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, Lou said:

I don't. At all. 

Ask the Braves if they would have preferred not making the playoffs because they ended up 18 games behind the best team in the league. 

Again, players strive all year to make the postseason. To say they don't is just wrong. 

Of course the Braves are happy, but how do the Giants feel? How should players have felt if it had been the 82 win Phillies that won after knocking out the 106 win Dodgers in a 3 game dice roll. This is the scenario we'll be looking at next year. 

And let's not pretend like the Braves are a huge outlier here. They won their division which would've got them to the post-season under every format the league has played under for more than a century.  

[Lou]

10 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Of course the Braves are happy, but how do the Giants feel? How should players have felt if it had been the 82 win Phillies that won after knocking out the 106 win Dodgers in a 3 game dice roll. This is the scenario we'll be looking at next year. 

And let's not pretend like the Braves are a huge outlier here. They won their division which would've got them to the post-season under every format the league has played under for more than a century.  

I think the Giants were happy to make the playoffs. Do you think they would have been happier not making it? Do you think the Braves r have been happy not making the players? How about any team that made it? Would any of them had been happy not making the playoffs? 

I say no. 

[Lou]

And don't kid yourselves. If we're the 6th or 7th team to qualify for the postseason this year, every single one of you will be watching every game. 

And the players will be ecstatic to be playing. 

[tdawg87]

3 minutes ago, Lou said:

And don't kid yourselves. If we're the 6th or 7th team to qualify for the postseason this year, every single one of you will be watching every game. 

And the players will be ecstatic to be playing. 

I'm a maybe.