2021-22 CBA Negotiation/Lockout Thread (DEAL IS AGREED TO)

[Taylor]

32 minutes ago, True Grich said:

How do you know this?

Because it's obvious? 

Also, I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with taking up a venture that is sure to make you a lot of money. As long as you treat your employees right and provide opportunities for others to succeed.

[Lazorko Saves]

51 minutes ago, Taylor said:

People become owners of professional sports franchises because it's a highly profitable venture. They don't do it out of the goodness of their own hearts, or simply because they "love the game" or whatever.

You live in upside-down world.

If you returned only 4% ROE in calendar year in 2021, you are bottom decile of investment returns.  Our clients did 52% in 2021 and we're nowhere close to big money.  Average of all hedge funds for 2021 was 12%.  4% is astonishingly bad.

MLB owners are indeed foregoing *far* better returns on their money precisely because they want the enjoyment/prestige/whatever of owning a team.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Lazorko Saves

[Dtwncbad]

4 minutes ago, Lazorko Saves said:

You live in upside-down world.

If you returned only 4% ROE in calendar year in 2021, you are bottom decile of investment returns.  Our clients did 52% in 2021 and we're nowhere close to big money.  4% is astonishingly bad.

MLB owners are indeed foregoing *far* better returns on their money precisely because they want the enjoyment/prestige/whatever of owning a team.

Personally, I am responsible for delivering 18% ROE every year.

4% would have investors bailing on us, and I would get fired.

4% ROE is terrible if you are pursuing profit.  

4% ROE is “make sure your hobby isn't eroding your wealth.”

[Taylor]

4% of $2.5B is better than 4% of what most companies are worth.

[Dtwncbad]

4 minutes ago, Taylor said:

4% of $2.5B is better than 4% of what most companies are worth.

I don’t think anybody who speaks finance has any idea what point you are trying to make here.

[jsnpritchett]

Oh, cool, the finance bros have checked in.  Are you all still wearing Patagonia vests?

[Dtwncbad]

9 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Oh, cool, the finance bros have checked in.  Are you all still wearing Patagonia vests?

Lulu today.

[Taylor]

25 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I don’t think anybody who speaks finance has any idea what point you are trying to make here.

That 4% doesn't always equal 4%. Anyone who passed Jr. High math knows what I'm talking about.

[Dtwncbad]

5 minutes ago, Taylor said:

That 4% doesn't always equal 4%. Anyone who passed Jr. High math knows what I'm talking about.

[UndertheHalo]

42 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Personally, I am responsible for delivering 18% ROE every year.

4% would have investors bailing on us, and I would get fired.

4% ROE is terrible if you are pursuing profit.  

4% ROE is “make sure your hobby isn't eroding your wealth.”

The braves ownerships investment isn’t what the valuation of the organization is. 

[Dtwncbad]

6 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

The braves ownerships investment isn’t what the valuation of the organization is. 

Never said it was.  I only responded to somebody talking about a 4% ROE.

[Docwaukee]

an ROI per year is not based on the current valuation of the team.  people need to stop saying 4%.  

the braves were purchased by liberty for 400m in 2007.  There are about 10 steps in between the 100m in profit they earned in 2022 to calculate the ROI.   

[UndertheHalo]

11 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Never said it was.  I only responded to somebody talking about a 4% ROE.

The 4% figure comes from where ?

[Lazorko Saves]

9 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

an ROI per year is not based on the current valuation of the team.  people need to stop saying 4%.  

the braves were purchased by liberty for 400m in 2007.  There are about 10 steps in between the 100m in profit they earned in 2022 to calculate the ROI.   

What a load of nonsense.

Of course you take current value for current equity.

Of course you take current year profits to calculate annualized ROE.

Ya'll can't be this dumb, just because you have an irrational hatred of billionaires.

[Dtwncbad]

2 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

The 4% figure comes from where ?

I don’t know ask the person that first brought it up.

[Dtwncbad]

18 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

an ROI per year is not based on the current valuation of the team.  people need to stop saying 4%.  

the braves were purchased by liberty for 400m in 2007.  There are about 10 steps in between the 100m in profit they earned in 2022 to calculate the ROI.   

ROI is not the same as ROE

[Lazorko Saves]

Don't know who first brought it up, but let's try from scratch.

2021 FY profit: $104m per Pasan tweet.

Source: go back a page in this thread.

2021 franchise valuation per Forbes estimate: $1.875b

Source: https://www.forbes.com/teams/atlanta-braves/?sh=36c8a903f2d7

Annualized return on equity for 2021 based on P&L from operations: 104 divided by 1875 = 5.5%

Source: 7th grade finance math

Now let the claims that "oh well, see 5.5% is really good, much better than 4% begin".  LOL, 21% negative alpha versus the S&P 500.  And this team won the World Series.  You may want to consider what these numbers might look like for Kansas City, Pittsburgh, etc.

Do you see why now we say that rich guys aren't buying MLB franchises for the purposes or getting (more) rich?

Edited February 25, 2022 by Lazorko Saves

[jsnpritchett]

[Lazorko Saves]

I love how proud some of ya'll are about your ignorance.

[Dtwncbad]

35 minutes ago, Lazorko Saves said:

Don't know who first brought it up, but let's try from scratch.

2021 FY profit: $104m per Pasan tweet.

Source: go back a page in this thread.

2021 franchise valuation per Forbes estimate: $1.875b

Source: https://www.forbes.com/teams/atlanta-braves/?sh=36c8a903f2d7

Annualized return on equity for 2021 based on P&L from operations: 104 divided by 1875 = 5.5%

Source: 7th grade finance math

Now let the claims that "oh well, see 5.5% is really good, much better than 4% begin".  LOL, 21% negative alpha versus the S&P 500.  And this team won the World Series.  You may want to consider what these numbers might look like for Kansas City, Pittsburgh, etc.

Do you see why now we say that rich guys aren't buying MLB franchises for the purposes or getting (more) rich?

By the way I just read the actual net operating income for he Braves was $20m, not $104m.

$104m was operating income before debt and amortization.

[UndertheHalo]

2 hours ago, Lazorko Saves said:

Don't know who first brought it up, but let's try from scratch.

2021 FY profit: $104m per Pasan tweet.

Source: go back a page in this thread.

2021 franchise valuation per Forbes estimate: $1.875b

Source: https://www.forbes.com/teams/atlanta-braves/?sh=36c8a903f2d7

Annualized return on equity for 2021 based on P&L from operations: 104 divided by 1875 = 5.5%

Source: 7th grade finance math

Now let the claims that "oh well, see 5.5% is really good, much better than 4% begin".  LOL, 21% negative alpha versus the S&P 500.  And this team won the World Series.  You may want to consider what these numbers might look like for Kansas City, Pittsburgh, etc.

Do you see why now we say that rich guys aren't buying MLB franchises for the purposes or getting (more) rich?

Why are you talking about the alpha vs. the s&p500.  It’s not a stock portfolio.  It’s an extremely dishonest comp to make.  And there are a whole myriad of reasons besides capital appreciation and annual revenue streams that make owning a Major League Baseball club very lucrative.  Never mind the fact that it’s just about as safe an investment as one of these guys can make.  When the people (besides cohen who just got in) who own any of these teams get out they’re all going to have made an incredible amount of money from their initial investment with basically zero risks while carrying all the other benefits along the way.  Utilizing the value of the clubs for loans, prestige etc.  this bullshit about the owners acting like they’re doing a public service owning these teams is just gas lighting.  They’re all making out like bandits. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by UndertheHalo

[Dtwncbad]

14 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Why are you talking about the alpha vs. the s&p500.  It’s not a stock portfolio.  It’s an extremely dishonest comp to make.  And there are a whole myriad of reasons besides capital appreciation and annual revenue streams that owning a Major League Baseball club is very lucrative.  Never mind the fact that it’s just about as safe an investment as one of these guys can make.  When the people (besides cohen who just got in) who own any of these teams get out they’re all going to have made an incredible amount of money from their initial investment with basically zero risks while carrying all the other benefits along the way.  Utilizing the value of the clubs for loans, prestige etc.  this bullshit about the owners acting like they’re doing a public service owning these teams is just gas lighting.  They’re all making out like bandits. 

No, they are not making out like bandits.  Bandits steal their wealth.

They’re all making out like business owners who run their businesses successfully.

[Lazorko Saves]

13 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

 When the people (besides cohen who just got in) who own any of these teams get out they’re all going to have made an incredible amount of money

How much is "incredible"?  Is that a lot?  Can you put a number on it?  A number that we could compare to other asset classes, say, maybe against the largest asset class on the entire planet that has a deterministic and easily identifiable valuation?  Ah, but you already told me that was "dishonest".

If you can't put a number on it, then it's just a prosaic faith-based assertion.

[UndertheHalo]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

No, they are not making out like bandits.  Bandits steal their wealth.

They’re all making out like business owners who run their businesses successfully.

Alright man.  You’re a person who has an idealogical position that owners / capitalists should have no obstruction to unlimited wealth accumulation.  It’s a fundamental disagreement.  I’m just saying.  The 4% figure is silly.  Disagree or agree I don’t care. 

[Lazorko Saves]

Just now, UndertheHalo said:

You’re a person who has an idealogical position that owners / capitalists should have no obstruction to unlimited wealth accumulation.

This is a moronic strawman.

You're putting words into his mouth.  Don't do that.