Trumped

[Thomas]

 

15 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

This is bullshit Thomas.  The Republicans and the president himself have tried to pin this on the Democrats.  They shamelessly lie about everything.  What exactly do you think the Democrats can do aside from what’s being done now.  If not for the Democrats Trump, Sessions, and Nielson would be doing this quietly probably at in expanded more vicious manner.  This would not be happening if Democrats were in charge.  They are not.  The Republicans could stop this if they wanted.  Trump could stop this if he wanted.  He doesn’t want to because this is something plays well for HIS voters.  He’ll keep lying and deflecting until enough political pressure is exerted.  As will his lieutenants.  That’s it. 

You don’t like partisanship.  Fine.  But the Republicans own this and to point that out when the Republicans are lying about culpability is wholly justified. 

When you attack a political side, those on the side you're attacking close up into a defensive mindset. How else can you explain the questionable arguments and justifications? Had my rather conservative inlaws over yesterday. All they did was bitch about how the liberals are attacking them. They aren't even listening to the arguments of the issue.  And if you cannot argue this specific issue solely on the its merits then what issue can you?

[Thomas]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

Kidnapping children at this widespread pace is the exact problem and it is new.  This is Trump, Sessions Nielsen’s “zero tolerance” policy at work.  

Heh. Kidnapping children of color is nothing new in this country. I'm reminded of that every time I drive down Indian School Road here in Albuquerque.

[Thomas]

The policy of dehumanizing immigrants has been going on for centuries. And we're surprised when they are treated in an inhumane manner? This tactic has been employed for this exact purpose.

[UndertheHalo]

3 minutes ago, Thomas said:

 

When you attack a political side, those on the side you're attacking close up into a defensive mindset. How else can you explain the questionable arguments and justifications? Had my rather conservative inlaws over yesterday. All they did was bitch about how the liberals are attacking them. The aren't even listening to the arguments of the issue.  And if you cannot argue this specific issue solely on the its merits than what issue can you?

It’s important to identify who does what Thomas.  The republicans are lying about who’s doing this.  Some people like to say both parties are the same.  This is as clear an example as there is that that is not true. 

As far arguing the merits of the issue.  It’s pretty easy isn’t it ? It’s wrong to kidnap children and use them as a political bargaining chip.  It’s wrong to unnecessary to do this to people because they’re trying to get into the country.   We don’t need to take the children. 

[red321]

42 minutes ago, Thomas said:

And this is a prime example of what is wrong...

You are more concern about who is blamed than fixing the problem.

thanks for backing up my basic premise...unless people will hold the powers that be accountable - regardless of what side they are on, it's not going to change. Buying into the both sides do it mantra doesn't solve the problem, it is what parties are counting on. The middle wonder why nobody pays attention to them, it's because they don't have to if the middle just gives up.

In this case, highlighting who is responsible for implementation of this policy, and discussing how to get them to change this policy...holding them accountable and highlighting how it is unconscionable and inhumane...is the quickest way to end this policy. If you have think you have a better way to end this policy feel free to opine away.

[Thomas]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

It’s important to identify who does what Thomas.  The republicans are lying about who’s doing this.  Some people like to say both parties are the same.  This is as clear an example as there is that that is not true. 

When it's framed in a bad vs worse argument it loses meaning. Especially when you haven't won the argument that the issue is wrong yet.

2 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

 

As far arguing the merits of the issue.  It’s pretty easy isn’t it ? It’s wrong to kidnap children and use them as a political bargaining chip.  It’s wrong to unnecessary to do this to people because they’re trying to get into the country.   We don’t need to take the children. 

But nobody is listening as long as this is framed in a "us vs you" argument. 

[UndertheHalo]

9 minutes ago, Thomas said:

Heh. Kidnapping children of color is nothing new in this country. I'm reminded of that every time I drive down Indian School Road here in Albuquerque.

 

5 minutes ago, Thomas said:

The policy of dehumanizing immigrants has been going on for centuries. And we're surprised when they are treated in an inhumane manner? This tactic has been employed for this exact purpose.

But it’s new recently.  These are terrible things from the past that are supposed to be buried.  They’re being dredged back up by evil lunatics. 

Its not right to shrug your shoulders because, well this is how it was 100 years ago.  I doubt this is your feeling on this. 

[Thomas]

3 minutes ago, red321 said:

thanks for backing up my basic premise...unless people will hold the powers that be accountable - regardless of what side they are on, it's not going to change. Buying into the both sides do it mantra doesn't solve the problem, it is what parties are counting on. The middle wonder why nobody pays attention to them, it's because they don't have to if the middle just gives up.

In this case, highlighting who is responsible for implementation of this policy, and discussing how to get them to change this policy...holding them accountable and highlighting how it is unconscionable and inhumane...is the quickest way to end this policy. If you have think you have a better way to end this policy feel free to opine away.

Like I said if you haven't won the argument that the issue itself is wrong, trying to pin blame is laughably premature. Our government has spent decades indoctrinating its citizens that immigrants are sub-human. Until those layers have been peeled away everything else is academic. 

[UndertheHalo]

2 minutes ago, Thomas said:

When it's framed in a bad vs worse argument it loses meaning. Especially when you haven't won the argument that the issue is wrong yet.

But nobody is listening as long as this is framed in a "us vs you" argument. 

No one is listening anyway.  Half the country thinks this is fine. 

[Thomas]

4 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

No one is listening anyway.  Half the country thinks this is fine. 

Ignoring the reason I stated as to why this is the case is indicative of the problem.

[Thomas]

3 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

 

But it’s new recently.  These are terrible things from the past that are supposed to be buried.  They’re being dredged back up by evil lunatics. 

Its not right to shrug your shoulders because, well this is how it was 100 years ago.  I doubt this is your feeling on this. 

This is why civil rights activists continue to "rehash the past" as their opponents are wont to say. The current actions of this administration isn't happening in a vacuum. It's is simply a symptom of the preexisting condition. See the lack of the shocked face in minorities. Yet so many white people are more "How could this have happened?!?!?" You cannot deal with the current without addressing the past. To solve the issue you have to address it in a complete manner.

[UndertheHalo]

1 minute ago, Thomas said:

Ignoring the reason I stated as to why this is the is indicative of the problem.c

That was a frustrated response.  So, poor form from me. My bad. 

I disagree with you that there’s a problem in highlighting who is advancing and enforcing the policy.  How would you have the Democrats respond when president himself is blaming them for the policy ? Is it not important that people know who does what ?

I appreciate what you’re saying about the merits of the argument.  But it seems to me that the argument is simple and is stated.  What do you think should be done differently to challenge it ?

[UndertheHalo]

3 minutes ago, Thomas said:

This is why civil rights activists continue to "rehash the past" as their opponents are wont to say. The current actions of this administration isn't happening in a vacuum. It's is simply a symptom of the preexisting condition. See the lack of the shocked face in minorities. Yet so many white people are more "How could this have happened?!?!?" You cannot deal with the current without addressing the past. To solve the issue you have to address it in a complete manner.

Many of these conditions never went away though.  Working to disenfranchise minority voters for example.  This is something that has persisted in some form or another.  

The practice of taking children to assimilate them is different from what we’re seeing on the border. It’s also something that did go away.  I’m sorry, I just don’t agree that this is something that is relavent to the issue of taking children from migrant parents.  

[Thomas]

12 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

That was a frustrated response.  So, poor form from me. My bad. 

I disagree with you that there’s a problem in highlighting who is advancing and enforcing the policy.  How would you have the Democrats respond when president himself is blaming them for the policy ? Is it not important that people know who does what ?

I appreciate what you’re saying about the merits of the argument.  But it seems to me that the argument is simple and is stated.  What do you think should be done differently to challenge it ?

You have to convinced them it's a problem first before assigning blame. It's the Democrat's fault that the sun rises in the east each morning isn't a particularly effective argument. I don't think I need to quote posters in this thread that don't see this issue as a problem to illustrate my point that people don't see this as a problem. Why would they? They simply are listening to elected officials in the government (and likely propaganda in the mainstream news media). And they aren't going to listen to the merits of the case as long as it's framed in an "us vs you" argument. Basic human psychology. 

[Thomas]

5 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Many of these conditions never went away though.  Working to disenfranchise minority voters for example.  This is something that has persisted in some form or another.  

The practice of taking children to assimilate them is different from what we’re seeing on the border. It’s also something that did go away.  I’m sorry, I just don’t agree that this is something that is relavent to the issue of taking children from migrant parents.  

The underlying justification is the same though.  White entitlement. Just because it's a new leak in the dam doesn't mean it's a particularly novel issue. And these "leaks" will continue to happen. It might be a different racial bias next time but to the dam it's all the same.

[Pujols4MVP]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

Fox News was included in my statement. There is a lot of disinformation out there among all the news outlets. 

Bingo. All of the news channels do it. FOX, MSNBC, CNN etc.

I have to admit though when Fox had moderate voices on there like Krauthammer & Holmes the network was more tolerable, for a while they gave a moderate lefty like Holmes & moderate righty like Krauthammer a voice on their network.

[UndertheHalo]

14 minutes ago, Thomas said:

The underlying justification is the same though.  White entitlement. Just because it's a new leak in the dam doesn't mean it's particularly novel issue. And these "leaks" will continue to happen. It might be a different racial bias next time but to the dam it's all the same.

I don’t think the justification is the same though.  I think this one it’s pretty simple.  Plain old cruelty is all that it is.  

 

[UndertheHalo]

6 minutes ago, Scioscia4MVP said:

Bingo. All of the news channels do it. FOX, MSNBC, CNN etc.

I have to admit though when Fox had moderate voices on there like Krauthammer & Holmes the network was more tolerable, for a while they gave a moderate lefty like Holmes & moderate righty like Krauthammer a voice on their network.

No they don’t all do it . Fox News trades in conspiracy theories.  Falsehoods and deliberate mischaracterizations are pervasive on that network.  

[Thomas]

2 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t think the justification is the same though.  I think this one it’s pretty simple.  Plain old cruelty is all that it is.  

But to dismiss the cruelty you need a justification. "Oh yeah, they are just immigrant Mexicans. They don't even count" works as one. I mean yes, we shouldn't be at this place in 2018. But we are. And we cannot ignore that fact.

[Thomas]

"We shouldn't be bombing countries for oil but they're Arab AND Muslim so they don't count."
"Blacks shouldn't be beaten and killed by law enforcement but they're black so they don't really count."

I don't think in this country we can go five years without this illness showing itself. The fact that we treat each case as something new is probably part of the problem.

[Lou]

1 hour ago, Rico said:

Because you're rambling on about things that have nothing to do with the problem we are facing today.  Your argument is equivalent to "But her e-mails."

rambling? lol

you brought up children being separated from their families. 

you brought up Obama's precluvity to deport illegals as a response to Trump separating children from their families. I'm asking you to explain what happened to all of the children as a result of those deportations. 

my response was not the equivalent of "but her email", but your response was a direct attack on me while continuing to refuse to answer the question. very Trumplike, if you ask me. (and if you choose to ask me, unlike yourself, I will answer the question)

 

[Jason]

How does the border patrol know that adults and children together are actual families? Is it possible some are being trafficked or something? Should we just keep them with their traffickers if that's the case. I'm sure that most coming over are families but wouldn't it be prudent to make sure that is the case first? 

[nate]

Here is where the media totally misses a chance...

Crime in Germany is actually the lowest it has been in 30 years.  Merkel has the highest approval ratings of anyone in the German government and the pro-immigration parties are showing much higher approval than the anti-immigration ones..

Two out right and blatant lies to further his racist anti-immigration stance.

Edited June 18, 2018 by nate

[Thomas]

14 minutes ago, nate said:

Two out right and blatant lies to further his racist anti-immigration stance.

I imagine this is the impetus of the tweet.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/austria-migration-axis-kurz-italy-germany_us_5b22736ae4b09d7a3d7ad352

PS That isn't scary sounding at all!

[nate]

5 minutes ago, Thomas said:

I imagine this is the impetus of the tweet.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/austria-migration-axis-kurz-italy-germany_us_5b22736ae4b09d7a3d7ad352

PS That isn't scary sounding at all!

The last Axis in that region went so well...