Trumped

[Thomas]

4 minutes ago, red321 said:

When you have the leader of one of the most powerful countries in the world lavish praise and talks about how much the murdering despot loves his people, talks about what a great leader he is (days after you've gone out of your way to antagonize your closest allies)...you've done more than just had a conversation. There were ways they could have had these conversations without elevating Kim to great international leader. Like it or not, at least for now, the US does have an outsized influence on the international stage and what we say matters.

That's a completely different conversation than

1 hour ago, red321 said:

We gave one of the world's worst despots and murderer of his own people creedance on the international stage

This line of thinking, quite popular on social media recently, needs to die a painful death. It's bullheaded and something I'd expect hear from neo-cons. Which I did hear during Obama's term. A lot. How did this become popular by the side not generally described as "bat-shit crazy"?

[UndertheHalo]

3 minutes ago, Thomas said:

At this point if Trump unveiled a plan to reduce the national defense budget by 75% and increase national healthcare by the same amount there would be many on the left screaming at the top of their lungs about how Trump was ruining the country. Because Trump.

Granted there would be a bunch of really confused people on the left. But there are many who are on autopilot when it comes to opposing Trump.  If he's for something, they are automatically against.

I look forward to the day when you are as unequivocally critical of people on the right.  The ones who are actually destroying the country. 

[Thomas]

Just now, UndertheHalo said:

I look forward to the day when you are as unequivocally critical of people on the right.  The ones who are actually destroying the country. 

It's tough because it requires so fewer sentences to point out what the right is doing.But at the very least they are being much more consistent to their value structure. 

[Adam]

Ahhh "destroying the country." When have things ever been better? Holy fuck the world has gone mad. 

[Thomas]

Just now, Adam said:

Ahhh "destroying the country." When have things ever been better? Holy fuck the world has gone mad. 

Based on our trajectory, 5 seconds ago.

[Adam]

Fair point. 

 

[mtangelsfan]

10 minutes ago, red321 said:

That's just ignorant. Believing that the dog and pony show the last 24 hours did not significantly improve the long term prospects for peace on the Korean Peninsula does not mean people don't care about peace.

Ignorant?

LOL, 

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Destroying the country?  We've been on the same path for decades regardless of which party is in the white house.  

[mtangelsfan]

8 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I look forward to the day when you are as unequivocally critical of people on the right.  The ones who are actually destroying the country. 

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

everyone be scared!

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Dem gets elected to the WH - buy guns and ammo before they're outlawed!  Rep gets elected - he's going to start WW3!  Meanwhile the country continues to dig itself further into debt which frankly doesn't seem to worry enough people, we're still in military conflicts some of which have been going on for decades which only makes more enemies of the US,  the middle class continues to get hammered, nothing seems to get done about legal and illegal immigration and the list goes on.  All of this has been the norm during my lifetime and both sides get the blame but as long as enough people swear the world is ending when the other side has power no real change will happen.

[Thomas]

14 minutes ago, red321 said:

That's just ignorant. Believing that the dog and pony show the last 24 hours did not significantly improve the long term prospects for peace on the Korean Peninsula does not mean people don't care about peace.

It's like no one remembers the cold war. You couldn't trip without falling on one of these summits. Khrushchev's visit to the US in 1959 was 100 times the dog and pony show this summit was. Perhaps literally. There may have well been a dog and pony trip during his stay. There was damn near everything else. And we still had the Cuban Missile Crisis four years later. But who knows? Maybe his visit to US humanized Americans enough that he wasn't quite as ready to end it all so easily.  I get not supporting Trump. I firmly believe the worst in him and his intentions. But this wholesale criticism of diplomacy? Even if if means buttering up murdering dictators which is the quintessential meaning of diplomacy? Color me unimpressed. The left is better than that.

[UndertheHalo]

I can’t recall a time when objective truth meant basically nothing to the extent that we see today.  That is new and it’s terrifying.  

[Adam]

2 minutes ago, Thomas said:

 The left is better than that.

Have you met The left?

[Adam]

Just now, UndertheHalo said:

I can’t recall a time when objective truth meant basically nothing to the extent that we see today.  That is new and it’s terrifying.  

Hey now, 99% of the people (the left) pushing social justice nonsense are as guilty of this as anyone on the right. 

[UndertheHalo]

And I can only speak for myself.  But I think people are wrong to criticize Trump for meeting with Kim Jong Un.  

I also think that plenty of people on the right are greatly exaggerating the actual substance of this particular summit.  It’s good it happened . I hope there’s more.  I hope Trump gets to make a final peace.  But we aren’t there yet and we aren’t particularly close. 

[UndertheHalo]

1 minute ago, Adam said:

Hey now, 99% of the people (the left) pushing social justice nonsense are as guilty of this as anyone on the right. 

The substance is different.  Bitching about being nice to trannies isn’t as dangerous as attempting to dismantle the social safety net. 

[Thomas]

3 minutes ago, Adam said:

Have you met The left?

Everyone is capable of greatness. We may be collectively falling short but the capability and potential is still there.

[mtangelsfan]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

And I can only speak for myself.  But I think people are wrong to criticize Trump for meeting with Kim Jong Un.  

I also think that plenty of people on the right are greatly exaggerating the actual substance of this particular summit.  It’s good it happened . I hope there’s more.  I hope Trump gets to make a final peace.  But we aren’t there yet and we aren’t particularly close. 

I think the media is doing the democrats no favors.  Most every story I have seen has a negative slant about the meeting.  It is crazy.  Nobody can be objective anymore, not even the press whose objectiveness is necessary for a free country to exist.

[Adam]

Bitching and compelling speech are two different things. 

I wish the "social safety net" was dismantled. When are they going to do that?

[mtangelsfan]

3 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

The substance is different.  Bitching about being nice to trannies isn’t as dangerous as attempting to dismantle the social safety net. 

Baloney, the assaults on freedom come from both sides equally.

[red321]

6 minutes ago, Thomas said:

It's like no one remembers the cold war. You couldn't trip without falling on one of these summits. Khrushchev's visit to the US in 1959 was 100 times the dog and pony show this summit was. Perhaps literally. There may have well been a dog and pony trip during his stay. There was damn near everything else. And we still had the Cuban Missile Crisis four years later. But who knows? Maybe his visit to US humanized Americans enough that he wasn't quite as ready to end it all so easily.  I get not supporting Trump. I firmly believe the worst in him and his intentions. But this wholesale criticism of diplomacy? Even if if means buttering up murdering dictators which is the quintessential meaning of diplomacy? Color me unimpressed. The left is better than that.

You seem to be confusing criticizing specific aspect of what occurred, the results, the intention, how it came about etc. with wholesale criticism of diplomacy in general.

 

[red321]

1 minute ago, mtangelsfan said:

Baloney, the assaults on freedom come from both sides equally.

there we go...knew you had it in you

[mtangelsfan]

Just now, red321 said:

there we go...knew you had it in you

Please, it was part of the discussion.  It is nice of you to try to shut down the conversation though.

Typical liberal tactic.

[Thomas]

Just now, red321 said:

You seem to be confusing criticizing specific aspect of what occurred, the results, the intention, how it came about etc. with wholesale criticism of diplomacy in general.

I literally quoted what you said. This isn't an unique opinion by you. It's practically a meme now on social media. So no, I didn't confuse anything. The left has been lazy in their criticisms and deserve to be called out on them. I get why you can't defend in any way what I stated. There is certainly a nuanced argument to be made against the administration. But the left as a whole has failed to even clear the bar of not sounding like 2015 neo-cons.

[Thomas]

11 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I also think that plenty of people on the right are greatly exaggerating the actual substance of this particular summit.  It’s good it happened . I hope there’s more.  I hope Trump gets to make a final peace.  But we aren’t there yet and we aren’t particularly close. 

Agreement on the assessment of the right.

Though I saw argued by some on the left that if Trump didn't succeed in having NK agree to complete nuclear disarmament by the end of the 24 hour summit that he unequivocally failed. That one made me weep on the inside a bit for the future of our species.

The truth is that the US cannot unilaterally fix this mess. The best we can do is convince NK that it isn't in our interest to install regime change if they disarm. Perhaps offer a considerable financial carrot. The vast majority of convincing will come from China, if they are so inclined. Whatever the eventual outcome is, it'll be China who plays the biggest part by far. Assuming Trump doesn't just nuke NK first.