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[SlappyUtilityMIF]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Smith is the only Angels catcher with a positive pitch framing number...  http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php

Framing!!!!!       framing is great!!!!!   When the pitchers HIT THEIR SPOTS!!!!!

When they don't it matters not!

[Angel Oracle]

Harvey and Cahill either groove them, or couldn't hit water if they fell out of a bleeping boat.

[Stradling]

16 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Framing!!!!!       framing is great!!!!!   When the pitchers HIT THEIR SPOTS!!!!!

When they don't it matters not!

No shit.  

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Framing!!!!!       framing is great!!!!!   When the pitchers HIT THEIR SPOTS!!!!!

When they don't it matters not!

Yawn...

Save yourself the tinklefest, I don't think Smith is a good defensive catcher.  I pointed out the framing info because it's surprising given his defensive reputation and because despite his ability to impact the running game DG has been bad at it.  He's been bad at it this year, last year, and every year he's been in the league.  

There is a reason the teams on the cutting edge of the game put value into framing data, no amount of old man screaming at clouds gibberish is going to dismiss that reality.  It's a thing and there are those who can and those who cannot do it although the gap between them is starting to shrink.  Still, to point out how big an impact pitch framing has compared to throwing out runners consider this.. The MLB leader in framing runs saved last year was Grandal with 15.7.   The MLB leader in throwing runs saved was James McCaan with 1.1.     

15.7 runs saved > 1.1 runs saved.   

At the other end of the spectrum -- the absolute worst pitch framer last year was worth negative 17.8 runs compared to the worst thrower in the game at negative 0.8

Funny thing about pitch framing -- doing it well tends to result in guys not reaching base... and reaching base is how runs are scored (Imagine a bunch of !!!!!!!!!! and ALL CAPS here to make it seem like you're an idiot for not knowing the obvious).  It also helps that a catcher can have thousands of pitch framing opportunities over the course of a year .vs the number of steal attempts they are likely to see..   

https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=2557264
 

58 minutes ago, Stradling said:

No shit.  

People often react stupidly when they think they are being challenged.   Even when they aren't.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Inside Pitch

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

I'm not popping off on you IP..... I'm merely stating Framing isn't a great stat to worry about.  When your pitchers can't get it close to the zone then you can't frame the pitch properly. And framing a BALL outside of the strike zone doesn't matter to me. It's a ball/wasted pitch unless in an exact count.

Framing of a strike zone also comes back to being able to work with an umpire and what their strike zone is. It's knowledge. Spin Rates, Frame Rates etc are nothing more than for people to over analyze stats even when they don't matter. 

Or, are confused for something else within the game. 

Which MLB teams are prizing spin?

MLB teams by change in average rate of four-seam fastball revolutions per minute/miles per hour between 2015 and 2018*

TEAM	CHANGE IN AVERAGE FASTBALL RPM/MPH, 2015-18
New York Yankees	+1.47	–
Los Angeles Dodgers	+1.12	–
Houston Astros	+0.90	–
Texas Rangers	+0.88	–
Milwaukee Brewers	+0.84	–
New York Mets	+0.78	–
Boston Red Sox	+0.63	–
Arizona Diamondbacks	+0.55	–
Pittsburgh Pirates	+0.54	–
Colorado Rockies	+0.53	–
St. Louis Cardinals	+0.52	–
Seattle Mariners	+0.46	–
Los Angeles Angels	+0.37	–
Cleveland Indians	+0.34	–
San Diego Padres	+0.33	–
Chicago Cubs	+0.32	–
Minnesota Twins	+0.28	–
Detroit Tigers	+0.22	–
Atlanta Braves	+0.22	–
Toronto Blue Jays	+0.07	–
Washington Nationals	-0.06	–
San Francisco Giants	-0.08	–
Baltimore Orioles	-0.14	–
Miami Marlins	-0.16	–
Tampa Bay Rays	-0.17	–
Philadelphia Phillies	-0.17	–
Kansas City Royals	-0.40	–
Oakland Athletics	-0.62	–
Chicago White Sox	-0.80	–
Cincinnati Reds	-0.99	–

Even with this above example of another STAT SPIN RATE. We are middle of the pack. However, the truth to our pitchers falling behind and throwing 90 pitches in 4 innings is that they are not getting ahead in the count. By throwing too many 2 strike off speed pitches in 0-0, 1-0, 2-0 counts. By falling behind also leads to the eventual of having to throw a strike and they are getting hammered. 

DG seemed to me as if he was historically a better defensive catcher than Smith. The hitting goes to Smith. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

28 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Yawn...
 

People often react stupidly when they think they are being challenged.   Even when they aren't.

So, you are IP & Stradling? I don't understand? Or, are you running to the aid of someone who I'm not popping off on either.

I was merely stating a fact nothing else matters until..... STRIKE ONE!      You can't frame it. They can't hit it. Your defense can't catch it, make a play, or throw anyone out.

The Game hasn't changed in a 100+ years.

1. Throw Strikes

2. Hit the Ball

3. Make the Play

4. Play Catch

You do those things you win 83% of your games along any level. <<<<<<    This is also 100% correct ~

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

So, you are IP & Stradling? I don't understand?

I laughed at this...

7 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

I'm not popping off on you IP..... I'm merely stating Framing isn't a great stat to worry about.  When your pitchers can't get it close to the zone then you can't frame the pitch properly. And framing a BALL outside of the strike zone doesn't matter to me. It's a ball/wasted pitch unless in an exact count.

I didn't take offense really, but I do think it's easier to just dismiss the framing data on Smith rather than dismiss framing itself.   You aren't wrong about it starting with the pitcher either....   It's got to be close to steal a strike, but conversely a bad pitch framer can give away strikes because they are jittery.   It's maybe getting too much praise but it's a real thing.

9 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

DG seemed to me as if he was historically a better defensive catcher than Smith. The hitting goes to Smith. 

I agree and it's not close IMO.   To be honest given what we have seen from Lucroy, I don't know the team wouldnt be better off with DG and Smith than Lucroy and Smith.   

Good response dude.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

16 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I laughed at this...

I didn't understand if you had 2 profiles. apologies.

I didn't take offense really, but I do think it's easier to just dismiss the framing data on Smith rather than dismiss framing itself.   You aren't wrong about it starting with the pitcher either....   It's got to be close to steal a strike, but conversely a bad pitch framer can give away strikes because they are jittery.   It's maybe getting too much praise but it's a real thing.

Jittery and what you are alluding to is what we called weight balance of the catcher and his ability at receiving the pitch and aligning his body within the strike zone to present the pitcher with a spot.. Which also then goes into weight distribution and the ability or inability to block the pitch in the dirt properly and surrounding it with his body.

I agree and it's not close IMO.   To be honest given what we have seen from Lucroy, I don't know the team wouldnt be better off with DG and Smith than Lucroy and Smith.   

Good response dude.

Thanks, the more I think about it. I believe the ORG thoughts on Lucroy gives a little Veteran presence back there. 

Lucroy gives us a little better opportunity for some GAP power numbers across a full season. And he has shown the ability to lift the ball in certain situations previously.

I haven't seen any change from any pitcher with Doug White in charge compared to Butcher or Nagy. 

1. In getting a head early in the count. Strike One

2. or even pounding the zone. with all of his offerings the closest is Canning and he was taught that well before UCLA.

3. If anything we've pitched timid more and wasted too many pitches early in the game. When hitters are less likely to work a count to get on base. Compared to late in the game.  

3b. Which then rolls into our Starters throwing more pitches and lasting less innings.

3c. Compare Pena from last year to this season. He's a good one because he kind of came out of nowhere last year and had a pretty decent season. His Home Run rate is up compared to the same innings last year. But, so are his BB's and K's though at this time his hits are actually down due tot he innings thrown compared to last year by two hits allowed.      I would keep an eye on him. That is development either good or bad. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

1 hour ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

I'm not popping off on you IP..... I'm merely stating Framing isn't a great stat to worry about.  When your pitchers can't get it close to the zone then you can't frame the pitch properly. And framing a BALL outside of the strike zone doesn't matter to me. It's a ball/wasted pitch unless in an exact count.

Framing of a strike zone also comes back to being able to work with an umpire and what their strike zone is. It's knowledge. Spin Rates, Frame Rates etc are nothing more than for people to over analyze stats even when they don't matter. 

Or, are confused for something else within the game. 

Which MLB teams are prizing spin?

MLB teams by change in average rate of four-seam fastball revolutions per minute/miles per hour between 2015 and 2018*

TEAM	CHANGE IN AVERAGE FASTBALL RPM/MPH, 2015-18
New York Yankees	+1.47	–
Los Angeles Dodgers	+1.12	–
Houston Astros	+0.90	–
Texas Rangers	+0.88	–
Milwaukee Brewers	+0.84	–
New York Mets	+0.78	–
Boston Red Sox	+0.63	–
Arizona Diamondbacks	+0.55	–
Pittsburgh Pirates	+0.54	–
Colorado Rockies	+0.53	–
St. Louis Cardinals	+0.52	–
Seattle Mariners	+0.46	–
Los Angeles Angels	+0.37	–
Cleveland Indians	+0.34	–
San Diego Padres	+0.33	–
Chicago Cubs	+0.32	–
Minnesota Twins	+0.28	–
Detroit Tigers	+0.22	–
Atlanta Braves	+0.22	–
Toronto Blue Jays	+0.07	–
Washington Nationals	-0.06	–
San Francisco Giants	-0.08	–
Baltimore Orioles	-0.14	–
Miami Marlins	-0.16	–
Tampa Bay Rays	-0.17	–
Philadelphia Phillies	-0.17	–
Kansas City Royals	-0.40	–
Oakland Athletics	-0.62	–
Chicago White Sox	-0.80	–
Cincinnati Reds	-0.99	–

Even with this above example of another STAT SPIN RATE. We are middle of the pack. However, the truth to our pitchers falling behind and throwing 90 pitches in 4 innings is that they are not getting ahead in the count. By throwing too many 2 strike off speed pitches in 0-0, 1-0, 2-0 counts. By falling behind also leads to the eventual of having to throw a strike and they are getting hammered. 

DG seemed to me as if he was historically a better defensive catcher than Smith. The hitting goes to Smith. 

If you look at the diagram. the 4 seamer that they are alluding to. Since Eppler became our GM our pitchers actually throw harder and use less breaking balls and other offerings. Due to more revolutions of their 4 seem fastball. If you look at the clean peanuts brought in most have historically shown the ability to throw hard but also don't have a clue where it is going a % of the time due to their high walk rate per 9 innings. 

We went from the likes of Weaver, Wilson, Haren, Santiago.... Who threw with a wide repertoire of pitches. included cutters and splits.

To everyone above Harvey, Cahill, Barria, Trop and Stratton (who is now gonzo). who are 6.0-7.5 So/9 This is based on stuff and not hitting their spots I would guess-stimate these guys are also allowing double digits hits per 9 innings (9.8, 9.5, 12.6, 12.5, 13.2) and have walked 3.9/3.1 per 9 or 1 for every 2 innings they have pitched.

Everyone else is above 9.5 So/9.

Which has helped even the ones that are having a higher BB/9 and higher H/9 like Barria. These pitchers throw hard enough to mitigate some potential base runners due to a walk or two. When they have the ability to throw it by people when needed.

[ten ocho recon scout]

On 6/7/2019 at 5:39 PM, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Did you listen to any of the Draft? Day 3 we drafted a couple kids who pitched in high school or College.... And our announcer loudly expressed  _____ ______  2 way player!...

 

For the Love of everything holy! Just stop! BE happy Ohtani can do both and do both well. Not everyone can. And just because they were able to do it in high school, JUCO or a DII or NAIA school doesn't mean they will be able to do it in the Major Leagues!

No kidding. Doesnt pretty much every prep pitcher hit? 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

Bumped.

Interesting back and forth regarding our pitching staff, White between myself IP and Strad.