Should the Angels adjust how they value/view Ohtani?

[sportstr44]

Since the Angels have had plenty of time to see Ohtani as both a hitter and a pitcher against MLB players, granted we all would have liked to see him pitch more, should they adjust how they value/view him? It is obvious that Ohtani is valuable as both a pitcher and as a hitter, but maybe the Angels should look into adjusting the roles in which he pitches and hits. For the purposes of debate, the two options that are of interest are:

(Option 1) Starting Pitcher/DH

This option is to keep doing what they have been doing this year. Use Ohtani as a starting pitcher/potential ace and have him DH a few times a week. This option seemed to work out well enough this year. He never seemed to be overworked. He seemed strong when pitching and he looked like he was still hitting enough to not lose his timing or mechanics only hitting a few games a week.

But what if the Angels went to a different approach.

(Option 2) Starting RF/1B/DH and Closer

This option is something that seems like it could work out as well if not better for the team. It would get Ohtani's bat in the lineup more often and it would be interesting to see his athleticism play in the field. Ohtani played the OF some over in Japan, so the learning curve would not be overwhelming,  and the Angels could work with him all next season (without throwing) to get him ready for 2020. They could also work with him at first base next year if they feel the outfield would be too taxing. Then using him as a shutdown closer.

Some of the variables to look at as well are if Pujols stays for his full contract, how the farm system continues to evolve, if Trout re-signs or not, and how the health of the team is going forward. Both options have upsides and downsides, and both options have variables that change the way you look at them. The main difference between the two options is what attributes of Ohtani you feel bring more value to the team, hitting or pitching. Not sure which option would be better, but with what Ohtani has shown us is that his bat is every bit as valuable as his arm. Just thought I would throw that out there and see what others thought.

[Dick B Back]

The opening post...

[happybat4]

How would he warm up to close?

[sportstr44]

3 minutes ago, happybat4 said:

How would he warm up to close?

Between innings in the underground cages. Like all high school and college players that play positions.

[AngelsLakersFan]

He doesn't HAVE to close. He could be brought in in the 8th if the timing of the lineup made more sense.

 

[sportstr44]

2 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

He doesn't HAVE to close. He could be brought in in the 8th if the timing of the lineup made more sense.

 

This is true and also a possibility if he is going to be batting in the 9th.

[sportstr44]

3 minutes ago, BackUpTheTruck said:

I was thinking he could warm up in the bullpen in the 7th/8th while the Angels are on defense, with Ohtani running to the bullpen and back, in between innings, so he can hit.

On days that he is just the DH that is a possibility, but if he was playing RF or 1B it would have to be when the Angels were hitting and he isn't due up that inning. It is done all the time in college with two way players.

[Troll Daddy]

14 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

He doesn't HAVE to close. He could be brought in in the 8th if the timing of the lineup made more sense.

 

There's a reason why real closers pitch the final inning ... Diaz being one of many examples. In theory you're right but in reality the last three outs are the toughest in baseball. Just ask the Texas Rangers LOL who blew two WS championships.

[Troll Daddy]

I think Ohtani will dictate his own view/future. I'm sure the Angels would love to see him as a dominant #1 in their rotation.

[2020worldseries]

21 minutes ago, BackUpTheTruck said:

I was thinking he could warm up in the bullpen in the 7th/8th while the Angels are on defense, with Ohtani running to the bullpen and back, in between innings, so he can hit.

I think its a fun thought but not doable. To be able to predict a closing opportunity in the 7th is tough

You have to run through scenarios...

So lets say its the top 7th and we are home do you warm him up with a 5 run lead? 3 run lead? 1 run? tied? what about if we are down by 2? down by 1? 

 

 

What happens if we are up by 2 in the 7th and he starts warming up but then they score 3 runs in the top of the 8th? Still pitch him in the top of the 9th?

If you don't pitch him in the 9th after warming up in the 7th/8th with the lead... How many times would he warm up without pitching?

If you still pitch him in the 9th after the lead has been given up since he's already warmed up you won't get the proper value Ohtani can bring to your club on the mound 

[sportstr44]

13 minutes ago, 2020worldseries said:

I think its a fun thought but not doable. To be able to predict a closing opportunity in the 7th is tough

You have to run through scenarios...

So lets say its the top 7th and we are home do you warm him up with a 5 run lead? 3 run lead? 1 run? tied? what about if we are down by 2? down by 1? 

 

 

What happens if we are up by 2 in the 7th and he starts warming up but then they score 3 runs in the top of the 8th? Still pitch him in the top of the 9th?

If you don't pitch him in the 9th after warming up in the 7th/8th with the lead... How many times would he warm up without pitching?

If you still pitch him in the 9th after the lead has been given up since he's already warmed up you won't get the proper value Ohtani can bring to your club on the mound 

I wouldn't say it is not doable, but the game would definitely dictate when to have him warm up. It wouldn't be much different than a manager looking at potential lefty v. lefty match-ups in the coming innings.

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, sportstr44 said:

Since the Angels have had plenty of time to see Ohtani as both a hitter and a pitcher against MLB players, granted we all would have liked to see him pitch more, should they adjust how they value/view him? It is obvious that Ohtani is valuable as both a pitcher and as a hitter, but maybe the Angels should look into adjusting the roles in which he pitches and hits. For the purposes of debate, the two options that are of interest are:

(Option 1) Starting Pitcher/DH

This option is to keep doing what they have been doing this year. Use Ohtani as a starting pitcher/potential ace and have him DH a few times a week. This option seemed to work out well enough this year. He never seemed to be overworked. He seemed strong when pitching and he looked like he was still hitting enough to not lose his timing or mechanics only hitting a few games a week.

But what if the Angels went to a different approach.

(Option 2) Starting RF/1B/DH and Closer

This option is something that seems like it could work out as well if not better for the team. It would get Ohtani's bat in the lineup more often and it would be interesting to see his athleticism play in the field. Ohtani played the OF some over in Japan, so the learning curve would not be overwhelming,  and the Angels could work with him all next season (without throwing) to get him ready for 2020. They could also work with him at first base next year if they feel the outfield would be too taxing. Then using him as a shutdown closer.

Some of the variables to look at as well are if Pujols stays for his full contract, how the farm system continues to evolve, if Trout re-signs or not, and how the health of the team is going forward. Both options have upsides and downsides, and both options have variables that change the way you look at them. The main difference between the two options is what attributes of Ohtani you feel bring more value to the team, hitting or pitching. Not sure which option would be better, but with what Ohtani has shown us is that his bat is every bit as valuable as his arm. Just thought I would throw that out there and see what others thought.

Hasn't the limitations of playing in the field and warming up as a closer already been discussed?

[sportstr44]

38 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

I think Ohtani will dictate his own view/future. I'm sure the Angels would love to see him as a dominant #1 in their rotation.

Ohtani will definitely dictate his own future. The reason for the post was more to say that not only does he have the capability to be a dominant #1, but that he has also shown the ability to be a lefty middle of the order bat also. 

[sportstr44]

1 minute ago, stormngt said:

Hasn't the limitations of playing in the field and warming up as a closer already been discussed?

I'm sure it has. The reason I brought it up, I guess again, is with everything he has done with the bat this year, should the Angels value/view his bat as more of an attribute to the team then his arm. What would be better for the team starting 20-25 games and getting 300 abs or getting 600 abs and pitching 60 innings in tight games.

[stormngt]

7 minutes ago, sportstr44 said:

I'm sure it has. The reason I brought it up, I guess again, is with everything he has done with the bat this year, should the Angels value/view his bat as more of an attribute to the team then his arm. What would be better for the team starting 20-25 games and getting 300 abs or getting 600 abs and pitching 60 innings in tight games.

During the season when our bullpen was blowing games left and right I was intrigued about the idea of Ohtani as closer.  However the argument that it's not feasable was pretty compelling to me.

Next year he should be our fulltime DH. 2020 

Despite his bat i prefer not to give up his pitching.  If they figure a way to close than it's an intriguing idea.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

5 minutes ago, BackUpTheTruck said:

I would much rather have 600 at bats and 60-100 high-leverage innings. Many of those 20-25 starts would come against losing teams where an ace isn't needed to win.

i want go on record to disagreeing to anything that keeps him being a top of the rotation pitcher/DH...

[sportstr44]

2 minutes ago, stormngt said:

During the season when our bullpen was blowing games left and right I was intrigued about the idea of Ohtani as closer.  However the argument that it's not feasable was pretty compelling to me.

Next year he should be our fulltime DH. 2020 

Despite his bat i prefer not to give up his pitching.  If they figure a way to close than it's an intriguing idea.

I think everything he has done this year makes this such a tough decision. The Angels need all 3 from him. They need him to be the ace, the middle of the order lefty, and he has the stuff to be a dominate reliever. 

[Stradling]

4 hours ago, BackUpTheTruck said:

I would much rather have 600 at bats and 60-100 high-leverage innings. Many of those 20-25 starts would come against losing teams where an ace isn't needed to win.

This is such nonsense.

[Stradling]

I would start him every Sunday, I would have him hit everyday but Saturday if he is still at the stadium on Saturday nights (some pitchers leave early to get a good nights rest before the day game on Sunday) I would  have him available to pinch hit.  I also would have no problem with the manager giving him days off against guys like Chris Sale or other tough left handed pitchers.  

What is ridiculous is for some of you can’t be happy with what he is providing, which is twice as much as any other player.  You guys want more.  You guys want him to start but only against great teams, which is simply the stupidest idea I have read.  Look at the Dodgers, who just had a great series against the Diamondbacks last weekend to pull into first place.  Then they play three against the Mets (not a great team) and they are now 1.5 games back.  Then in addition to that you want him to hit every single day.  Then you want him to be a 1b or outfielder.  Oh and he should be the closer, but if the game dictates it he should pitch in the 8th inning.  To put it plainly, it is dumb.  

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, BackUpTheTruck said:

So you would have a 6-7 man rotation depending on what week it is in the schedule, diluting the talent in the top of the rotation, and bench Ohtani against Chris Sale when we need him the most.

Again, bold strategy Cotton . . .

I would not bench him I would use it as a day of rest since once again he’s doing more than anyone else.  

[Stradling]

I remember all those game Bridwell pitches this year. 

[tomsred]

Personally, I would have him only hit and play a position.  Pitching is a very risky business.  The guy could be a Hall of Famer just hitting and playing first and right/or field.  He has speed and is great at stealing bases.  The biggest problem is getting some durable top flight pitching in here, i.e. rebuilding our pitching staff without Ohtani.  I can't think of a greater player perfectly suited to protecting Trout, and Trout's intentional walks have to be reduced.  That will only be by someone like Ohtani hitting behind him.  That's the best we can hope for next year anyway for sure.  If he still wants to pitch starting in 2020 then that can be evaluated at that time.  Eppler's task is to make the pitching staff non-dependent on having Ohtani included.  That's not easy, but that is an important task on his list of to do's.  In my mind the only time I see it as a big advantage for him to pitch is in games in NL parks where he can hit and pitch in the same game, giving us an extra hitter in those games.

There is nothing guaranteed about Tommy John surgery.  I think we take it for granted that pitchers come back stronger than ever.  Sometimes pitchers have had to endure multiple UCL procedures  to continue their career, and sometime it doesn't work well at all.  If I were Ohtani (which I am not) I wouldn't want to risk it all, but since he is such a great hitter he maybe should consider taking the more likely route to success.

It's a tough decision, but is both hitting and pitching that great of a feat worth risking a career, or is it a novelty to be admired.  I'm glad I'm not making the ultimate decisions on this one.  Influencing the decisions here is just what the organization plans to do this off season, and that's a big mystery right now.

 

[Slegnaac]

The answer is obvious.  Sundays you have the bullpen start the game with Ohtani as the DH.  When the 5th inning rolls around you put Ohtani on the mound and let him finish the game and also bat as the pitcher.  If he can't go the full 5 innings then you manage like you are in the NL.  He can warm up knowing that he will start the 5th inning.

[Tank]

1 hour ago, BackUpTheTruck said:

If Ohtani was a closer, he can simply focus on his fastball/splitter combo and learn to locate those two pitches better than he is now.

Imagine how many games the Angels can win if they have less than 5 blown saves all year.

please show us anything from anywhere indicating ohtani and/or the angels are interested in having him be a closer.

[arch stanton]

I want him getting 600 ABs as much as anybody but I’m reserving the closer role for Alex Meyer