Are the Angels stuck?

[kevinb]

End of the day this team needs to be competing for division titles and championships with Trout not wild card berths and one game playoffs. 

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Just curious, what do you think we could have gotten for Santiago?  Might as well go big with potential when you are trading an awful pitcher like Santiago.  

Who the F*ck is Santiago? I said Skaggs. 

[Stradling]

Just now, Kevinb said:

Who the F*ck is Santiago?

The guy we traded to get Myers.  I told you he was awful.  If you don’t remember him why would you criticize the decision to acquire Myers for him?

[kevinb]

Just now, Stradling said:

The guy we traded to get Myers.  I told you he was awful.  If you don’t remember him why would you criticize the decision to acquire Myers for him?

I think you’re looking for a fight. I’m not mad he got Meyer. As I’ve said injuries happen. Sometimes it’s a risk reward thing  I think it was Fletcher who said the reason the Angels have so many pitching injuries is because we had to go for high risk high reward type pitchers. It is what it is. Sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn’t. It clearly didn’t work out. But stop acting like we danced on an Indian burial ground. Bad luck doesn’t exist. We have guys with injury histories. Usually those guys have injuries in their future if they’ve had them in their past. 

[Dtwncbad]

If you want to win a championship you have to have the courage to replace a decent player with a better player.

I get the assessment position by position but the conclusion is not the Angels are stuck, the conclusion is maybe it's time to have some balls and aggressively pursue better players.

This is exactly why I said the Angels should go get Machado.  Machado over Ward certainly makes this team better and he is 26.

I don't want to hear about how signing a big contract is always a disaster.  Signing Machado is absolutely nothing like signing Pujols.

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

Read your whole post. Disagree. Injuries happen. This team isn’t very good. We were 10 plus out of it before Trout went down. Oh and Middleton is a proven closer right? The bullpen was always a question mark so was the starting rotation. Cozart had one good year. Kole who the hell knows. And Calhoun’s been on a tear about two months now and we’re just barely above the Rangers. What’s our record after the first 16 games of the season? Under .500 ok perfect great. Thanks for playing. What’s the old Parcells quote? You are what your record says you are. 

So you read where I commented that we had five players (Calhoun, Kinsler, young, and Valbueno) whose performance wasnt below average.  They were pitiful.  We need guys to play average for their position. 

So you read where we rely too much on pitchers who cant seem to stay healthy. I argued we need to sign a starting pitcher and a closer.  You read that right?

Injuries happen yes.  Injuries to seven starting pitchers usually an anomoly (Angel's recent history included).  To suggest injuries had nothing to do with it is also idiotic

Calhoun went on a tear after we lost our pitching staff.  That was poor logic.

 

[tdawg87]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

If you want to win a championship you have to have the courage to replace a decent player with a better player.

I get the assessment position by position but the conclusion is not the Angels are stuck, the conclusion is maybe it's time to have some balls and aggressively pursue better players.

This is exactly why I said the Angels should go get Machado.  Machado over Ward certainly makes this team better and he is 26.

I don't want to hear about how signing a big contract is always a disaster.  Signing Machado is absolutely nothing like signing Pujols.

But it could be everything like signing Heyward.

My issue is we need pitching. The offense isn't terrible. It can definitely improve, but the difference in improvement won't be all that significant. 

This team needs Machado, and Grandal, and Keuchel, and Kimbrel, and Corbin. But spending 100 million dollars in one off-season is probably not going to happen. So we improve as much as we can everywhere we can with as little as possible. 

We aren't one player away.

 

[Dtwncbad]

6 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

But it could be everything like signing Heyward.

My issue is we need pitching. The offense isn't terrible. It can definitely improve, but the difference in improvement won't be all that significant. 

This team needs Machado, and Grandal, and Keuchel, and Kimbrel, and Corbin. But spending 100 million dollars in one off-season is probably not going to happen. So we improve as much as we can everywhere we can with as little as possible. 

We aren't one player away.

 

So when you are not "one player away", do not sign a great player that makes you better?

THAT would be the definition of being "stuck".

That make no sense.  Either you want to put an excellent product on the field or you don't.

[tdawg87]

42 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

So when you are not "one player away", do not sign a great player that makes you better?

When that player will singlehandedly take up all the payroll space leaving no room to improve other areas, no, you don't.

I would LOVE to have Machado. But realistically it just isn't going to happen.

[Angelsjunky]

11 hours ago, GrittyVeterans said:

80-85 wins next season would be very disappointing. This is a team with Trout, Ohtani, Simmons,Upton on it, and the goal has to be 90+ going into the offseAson

 

You're right, although I think 85-90 is more realistic, with an outside chance at a wildcard berth. My point was merely a positive trajectory rather than insta-contention after four years of mediocrity.

[kevinb]

27 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

 

You're right, although I think 85-90 is more realistic, with an outside chance at a wildcard berth. My point was merely a positive trajectory rather than insta-contention after four years of mediocrity.

With out major changes this team won’t win 80 games next year and will be again 15 games out of first. 

[Stradling]

4 hours ago, Kevinb said:

With out major changes this team won’t win 80 games next year and will be again 15 games out of first. 

With health and not a single major addition this team wins 80 games next year.  

[Angel Oracle]

9 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

If you want to win a championship you have to have the courage to replace a decent player with a better player.

I get the assessment position by position but the conclusion is not the Angels are stuck, the conclusion is maybe it's time to have some balls and aggressively pursue better players.

This is exactly why I said the Angels should go get Machado.  Machado over Ward certainly makes this team better and he is 26.

I don't want to hear about how signing a big contract is always a disaster.  Signing Machado is absolutely nothing like signing Pujols.

And neither would signing a year later an even better 3B, Arenado, who is also only a year older than Machado.

[Dtwncbad]

4 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

And neither would signing a year later an even better 3B, Arenado, who is also only a year older than Machado.

I wonder if you wait 10 years if you can someone even better?

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

I wonder if you wait 10 years if you can someone even better?

I wonder if you exaggerate whether someone will take you more or less serious

[Angel Oracle]

51 minutes ago, Stradling said:

With health and not a single major addition this team wins 80 games next year.  

I would definitely say more than 80 wins.   They are only 5 games under .500 with all of the injuries and starters returning from 1-2 year layoffs.

The rotation will still be on some sort of pitch counts and innings limits, although not as much and widespread as this season.

Heaney could pitch 180 innings next season, Skaggs maybe 160 innings, Barria and Pena both maybe 150 innings.   Ohtani will be limited based on lack of innings the past two seasons, so maybe 100-120 innings. But they have good depth emerging to back them up: Shoe (not sure if starter or late innings guy), Tropeano, Canning, Suarez, Sandoval, and maybe Castillo.   They truly didn’t have that this season.

A’th and Dipoto’s won’t be as good record wise as they were this season.

[Glen]

18 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

I believe the term "Craig" is only reserved for links, not perspectives or types of posts. It is never a Craig to endlessly recycle variations on "the big picture" threads. We'll be doing it all offseason, as you know.

Anyhow, I've pretty much written 2019 off as another transition year. Sure, Eppler should try to make the team as competitive as possible, but with an eye for improving the trajectory rather than going all in for 2019. In other words, think of the three-year plan:

2018: Finish with 75-80 wins

2019: Finish with 80-85 wins

2020: Finish with 85-90 wins

2021 and beyond: 90+ wins

To do that both patience and persistence is required - and, of course, savvy moves.

So as far as improving the team, I look at the next few years. By 2020 or so we should see Pujols swapped for Thaiss, with some Walsh and Fernandez sprinkled in. 2B will eventually give way for Rengifo or Jones. 3B will hopefully see a more established Ward. C either we go for Grandal or find some other way to improve. RF we'll see Adell replace Calhoun and eventually Marsh replace Upton, with Adams/Deveaux/Knowles waiting in the wings for opportunities in 2021 and beyond.

The problem with the pitching is that there's no clear sign of elite talent. Canning and Suarez show flashes, but are more likely to be mid-rotation types, along with Barria, Heaney, and Skaggs. I'm not willing to expect anything from Soriano, C-Rod, Rivera etc at this point, except hope they are healthy and develop.

But my main point is, the trajectory is what is important. If the Angels show no improvement next year, with stalled farm growth, then I think you might see a bit of a firesale in July: Calhoun, Heaney, Skaggs, Shoe, etc, even Upton and Simmons sold off to rebuild the farm (again). But I'm not expecting that, and I'm still optimistic about the future...just not expecting a huge turnaround in 2019.

The problem I see with that is that you're counting on all of those prospects to produce. Statistically, I think that's very unlikely. I hope they do but history tells us that maybe two of them will pan out. We consider Fletcher to be a success and he has an OBP of .316. Of course he could improve, but still.

[Glen]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

With health and not a single major addition this team wins 80 games next year.  

We've had what, three years in a row of shitty health? I know we're due but the trend isn't encouraging.

[Angel Oracle]

2 minutes ago, Glen said:

We've had what, three years in a row of shitty health? I know we're due but the trend isn't encouraging.

It is hard to look past this.

On the bright side, next season’s rotation will include guys who actually pitched for the Halos the previous season...Heaney, Skaggs, Barria, and to a lesser extent Ohtani, Pena, and Tropeano. 

[yk9001]

Fine, they have had catastrophic injuries to their pitchers, and that accounts for a bad 2018.

How does it make them better in 2019? They now have a bunch of wounded/fragile arms going forward.

 

why am I to assume they are going to be good enough to win a division?

[Blarg]

You are not to assume. You are to use critical thinking instead of emotional reaction to past events.

[Dtwncbad]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

I wonder if you exaggerate whether someone will take you more or less serious

I think it made the point, but I will say it anyway.

This roster is ready now for an impact player to make a difference.  Waiting an extra year to pursue an A+ player instead of an A player only makes sense if you think either you have no chance at the postseason in 2019 (with the A player) or you are already built for a deep postseason run in 2019 without the A player.

The difference between the players is not worth the wait.

 

[Blarg]

The Angels split the series with Houston pitching two bullpen games and without Upton for the two losses. 

Pitching is going to determine the Angels success next season. 

[Dtwncbad]

3 minutes ago, Blarg said:

The Angels split the series with Houston pitching two bullpen games and without Upton for the two losses. 

Pitching is going to determine the Angels success next season. 

The Angels definitely need a top tier starter.  No question.

But the offense is not good enough.  Take a hard look at the teams in the AL that are going to the postseason and how that team ranks in the AL in team OPS.

You need to have depth in your lineup to make good pitching fully pay for their rare mistakes.

That's just how the game is played today.

[Tank]

13 hours ago, Kevinb said:

Who’s fault is that? The people our gm brought in have a history of injuries. Hell Ohtani had a bum elbow when we signed him. 

 

13 hours ago, Kevinb said:

Definitely didn’t say that. Injuries happen. Especially when u sign guys who already have injuries. 

?????

which of our plethora of injured players were injured when we got them?