Upton has something to say....

[Ohtaniland]

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/03/01/justin-upton-teams-dont-value-players-as-people-anymore/amp/

[Second Base]

I don't feel he's wrong. I think that's part of the reason he chose the Angels. They offered a solid contract, but beyond that he enjoyed the clubhouse, the players. 

Mike Scioscia is great at creating that environment where players can thrive off the field. It might not always show up in the box score, and he makes some questionable decisions. But Upton enjoyed it, and he made sure he let Kinsler and Young know it.

[Troll Daddy]

44 minutes ago, Scotty@AW said:

I don't feel he's wrong. I think that's part of the reason he chose the Angels. They offered a solid contract, but beyond that he enjoyed the clubhouse, the players. 

Mike Scioscia is great at creating that environment where players can thrive off the field. It might not always show up in the box score, and he makes some questionable decisions. But Upton enjoyed it, and he made sure he let Kinsler and Young know it.

I still looking for the manager who doesn’t make questionable decisions. Do you know of any? 

Back to topic ... it’s a black eye for the game that there’s so many very good FA’s still left unsigned. Upton brings up some good points but it has always been about the numbers. Now the numbers are so much more advanced that they even have a cool name. 

What bothers me most is that some of the smaller market teams are lying low and not spending their free money.  Then using the term rebuilding as a excuse to lose and get draft pick compensation to rebuild. 

I love the fact that Arte Moreno stated that rebuilding isn’t in our DNA. 

 

[Second Base]

25 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

I still looking for the manager who doesn’t make questionable decisions. Do you know of any? 

Back to topic ... it’s a black eye for the game that there’s so many very good FA’s still left unsigned. Upton brings up some good points but it has always been about the numbers. Now the numbers are so much more advanced that they even have a cool name. 

What bothers me most is that some of the smaller market teams are lying low and not spending their free money.  Then using the term rebuilding as a excuse to lose and get draft pick compensation to rebuild. 

I love the fact that Arte Moreno stated that rebuilding isn’t in our DNA. 

 

He might say rebuild isn't in our DNA, but since Eppler took over, a rebuild has occured. It's not a fire sale, and purposeful losing, but it was a strict limit on spending, trading for low cost building blocks and accumulating prospects. 

That's how I explain Nava/Gentry, Giavotella, Maybin/Revere. We also traded for Simmons, Heaney and Upton for minimal prospects. We've also somehow retained or brought in Ohtani, Adell, Maitan, Marsh, Barria, Canning, Adell, Hermosillo...

I think Billy Eppler is schooling the rest of baseball on how to conduct a rebuild while maintaining a competitive team. Had Richards, Skaggs, Tropeano, Heaney, Shoe and Meyer not gotten injured, they'd have been a playoff team the last three years.

[krAbs]

48 minutes ago, Scotty@AW said:

He might say rebuild isn't in our DNA, but since Eppler took over, a rebuild has occured. It's not a fire sale, and purposeful losing, but it was a strict limit on spending, trading for low cost building blocks and accumulating prospects. 

That's how I explain Nava/Gentry, Giavotella, Maybin/Revere. We also traded for Simmons, Heaney and Upton for minimal prospects. We've also somehow retained or brought in Ohtani, Adell, Maitan, Marsh, Barria, Canning, Adell, Hermosillo...

I think Billy Eppler is schooling the rest of baseball on how to conduct a rebuild while maintaining a competitive team. Had Richards, Skaggs, Tropeano, Heaney, Shoe and Meyer not gotten injured, they'd have been a playoff team the last three years.

My theory is he is zigging when everyone the is zagging. A lot of teams are trying to tear down are rebuild right now. A few teams are basically good to go. But, not a ton of teams are seriously trying to re-tool. I think Eppler saw that, and saw that there were going to be a lot of teams competing for future talent, but not a ton of teams really searching out current talent (at least, not as many as normally do). So he decided to go for it, and was able to get real talent for fringe minor league talent.

 

This thought kinda comes from the idea that there isn't a lot of guaranteed prospect talent out there. If very few teams are going all in for prospects, then they will probably do very well. But if a ton of teams do, they will find that there just aren't enough players to go around, and they will have to overpay to get any minor league talent. I think this is the mechanism in mlb that makes it so it's impossible for too many teams to tank and re-build.

[Billy_Ball]

Yes, a rebuild....from the Dipoto disaster.

[totdprods]

Great post @krAbs

[houstoncali]

Justin Upton is one of my favorite players, but I have absolutely no sympathy for the players what so ever.  In many cases they have held the league hostage, and I am a good capitalist, and know the league would give two farts about them unless they were a superstar. But I believe there is a continuum and constant balance between the league and owners and players and their salaries (and the fans are in there someplace but they have been more or less left out).   And quite honestly, I am glad the owners are fighting back with the players.  After all, where were the players when Josh Hamilton held our program hostage for three years.  That POS completely didn't fulfill his end of the bargain and walked out on the team.  In any other industry he would have been given a severance package and told to hit the door or be just fired out right.  You can't tell me the owners didn't watch that situation closely and see exactly what these massive contracts can give you if things go south.  I would absolutely love it if some reporter would respond to a player lamenting about the state of baseball and say "Do you think how Arte Moreno was forced to pay the remaining amount of the Josh Hamilton deal when he walked out on the program and how all the players went to Hamilton's defense has something to do with the hesitancy the owners have in giving these massive long term deals?"

[Inside Pitch]

 

I don't think Upton is saying anything that isn't true -- front offices are more and more removed from the days when they made emotional buys or held attachments to players.  The Angels showed themselves to be part of the new generation when they didn't so much as offer a minor league invite to Weaver.   In the past that would have happened if for no other reason because of sentiment, but times have changed and the game is all about getting value ...  

I'm sure some will try to paint this as something bigger... but really it's just a guy being pretty aware the game has changed.  Upton benefited from his still retaining value..  Weaver, not so much.  This mindset is also why I doubt the Angels would be willing to stick with AP should his 2018 resemble his 2017...   

 

 

[Ohtaniland]

Great post @houstoncali

I’m surprised that Upton is even talking about it. He should just let it go and move on. Was he really expecting teams to go through a bidding war for his services? Good clubhouse guy hammering the baseball owners is never a good thing. 

[VariousCrap]

11 hours ago, Troll Daddy said:

Back to topic ... it’s a black eye for the game that there’s so many very good FA’s still left unsigned.

 

Actually, no it isn't.

[DCAngelsFan]

12 hours ago, Scotty@AW said:

I don't feel he's wrong. I think that's part of the reason he chose the Angels. They offered a solid contract, but beyond that he enjoyed the clubhouse, the players. 

Mike Scioscia is great at creating that environment where players can thrive off the field. It might not always show up in the box score, and he makes some questionable decisions. But Upton enjoyed it, and he made sure he let Kinsler and Young know it.

Eh, I get what he's saying, and I agree, I think there's a bit of benefit to the Arte and Scioscia approach, a little more familial and personable - I think Mike runs a pretty good clubhouse, keeps players loose and even-keeled - that's all goodness.

But, I mean, it's a business - does he really think the rest of us can go into, say, Google, and tell them "yeah, my coding skills are for crap - but I'm a people person, people like me, so yeah, I expect top dollar?"

You can't expect to be paid in a way that puts you in the top 0.001% of the population, and not expect teams to try to understand your potential value to their bottom line and to do their best to limit your costs and risks to them.    

But as a negotiating tactic, not sure a GM calling up a FA and telling them they suck is very effective ...

 

[Troll Daddy]

35 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

 

Actually, no it isn't.

I beg to differ 

[VariousCrap]

4 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

I beg to differ 

 

Of course you do.  It's okay for you to be wrong.  

[ettin]

2 hours ago, houstoncali said:

Justin Upton is one of my favorite players, but I have absolutely no sympathy for the players what so ever.  In many cases they have held the league hostage, and I am a good capitalist, and know the league would give two farts about them unless they were a superstar. But I believe there is a continuum and constant balance between the league and owners and players and their salaries (and the fans are in there someplace but they have been more or less left out).   And quite honestly, I am glad the owners are fighting back with the players.  After all, where were the players when Josh Hamilton held our program hostage for three years.  That POS completely didn't fulfill his end of the bargain and walked out on the team.  In any other industry he would have been given a severance package and told to hit the door or be just fired out right.  You can't tell me the owners didn't watch that situation closely and see exactly what these massive contracts can give you if things go south.  I would absolutely love it if some reporter would respond to a player lamenting about the state of baseball and say "Do you think how Arte Moreno was forced to pay the remaining amount of the Josh Hamilton deal when he walked out on the program and how all the players went to Hamilton's defense has something to do with the hesitancy the owners have in giving these massive long term deals?"

Nice post. I agree that the players often forget the players like Hamilton, Wells, Zito, et al that essentially get paid a massive guaranteed contract even if they do not perform. It appears that the nature of contracts in general are beginning to change too as it seems we are seeing a little bit more "creativity" in contract designs including performance risers, opt-outs, and such. Obviously there is at least a temporary market correction (we'll see how much this correction really lasts in next years free agent market).

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

I don't think Upton isn't saying anything that isn't true -- front offices are more and more removed from the days when they made emotional buys or held attachments to players.  The Angels showed themselves to be part of the new generation when they didn't so much as offer a minor league invite to Weaver.   In the past that would have happened if for no other reason because of sentiment, but times have changed and the game is all about getting value ...  

I'm sure some will try to paint this as something bigger... but really it's just a guy being pretty aware the game has changed.  Upton benefited from his still retaining value..  Weaver, not so much.  This mindset is also why I doubt the Angels would be willing to stick with AP should his 2018 resemble his 2017...   

 

 

I agree with IP here that Upton seems to be speaking more to the mindset of teams not making serious offers. Every team in baseball has a sabermetrics department that has crunched the numbers and know what a relatively fair offer is for Justin Upton in the free agent market and yet they purposely start off the conversations with his agent at something far below that. It seems he is pointing to the idea that instead of showing the player their true interest they are starting at an arbitrarily low staring point in terms of years and/or money that ultimately both sides know will never happen because Justin Upton is actually worth 5 years and $106M.

The "courting days" where a team would arbitrarily overspend on a player because they wanted him so badly are certainly over and Upton has been in the game long enough to remember that and is simply pointing out, in my opinion, the change from when he felt more wanted to a time, now, where it has become more business-like and mechanical.

[Inside Pitch]

32 minutes ago, ettin said:

The "courting days" where a team would arbitrarily overspend on a player because they wanted him so badly are certainly over and Upton has been in the game long enough to remember that and is simply pointing out, in my opinion, the change from when he felt more wanted to a time, now, where it has become more business-like and mechanical.

Bingo!.   Won't keep the usual suspects from trying to make the comments out to be something else.

[Ohtaniland]

1 hour ago, ettin said:

Nice post. I agree that the players often forget the players like Hamilton, Wells, Zito, et al that essentially get paid a massive guaranteed contract even if they do not perform. It appears that the nature of contracts in general are beginning to change too as it seems we are seeing a little bit more "creativity" in contract designs including performance risers, opt-outs, and such. Obviously there is at least a temporary market correction (we'll see how much this correction really lasts in next years free agent market).

I agree with IP here that Upton seems to be speaking more to the mindset of teams not making serious offers. Every team in baseball has a sabermetrics department that has crunched the numbers and know what a relatively fair offer is for Justin Upton in the free agent market and yet they purposely start off the conversations with his agent at something far below that. It seems he is pointing to the idea that instead of showing the player their true interest they are starting at an arbitrarily low staring point in terms of years and/or money that ultimately both sides know will never happen because Justin Upton is actually worth 5 years and $106M.

The "courting days" where a team would arbitrarily overspend on a player because they wanted him so badly are certainly over and Upton has been in the game long enough to remember that and is simply pointing out, in my opinion, the change from when he felt more wanted to a time, now, where it has become more business-like and mechanical.

It appears that he thought he would get more offers and more money when he tested the market. The market obviously didn’t agree with his assessment. He ended up getting a nice 6/$132M with a full no trade which he freely accepted. He then gets traded to the Angels and gets a new deal and brings his buddy’s Phillips and Kinsler with him. He’s a rich man and he needs to STFU and play baseball. I sure hope he doesn’t end up becoming Melvin Upton.

[Taylor]

I'm surprised no one has said, "Upton needs to STFU and just hit."

[Inside Pitch]

16 minutes ago, OHTANILAND said:

It appears that he thought he would get more offers and more money when he tested the market. The market obviously didn’t agree with his assessment. He ended up getting a nice 6/$132M with a full no trade which he freely accepted. He then gets traded to the Angels and gets a new deal and brings his buddy’s Phillips and Kinsler with him. He’s a rich man and he needs to STFU and play baseball. I sure hope he doesn’t end up becoming Melvin Upton.

It appears you've found your newest Angel to demonize....   

[Hubs]

16 minutes ago, OHTANILAND said:

It appears that he thought he would get more offers and more money when he tested the market. The market obviously didn’t agree with his assessment. He ended up getting a nice 6/$132M with a full no trade which he freely accepted. He then gets traded to the Angels and gets a new deal and brings his buddy’s Phillips and Kinsler with him. He’s a rich man and he needs to STFU and play baseball. I sure hope he doesn’t end up becoming Melvin Upton.

Players can voice opinions. I think the notion to STFU is f-ing stupid!

Why the anger and hate? I happen to see his point, and don't necessarily agree with all of it, but he is allowed to voice his opinion. Just because he is talented and has made a fortune doing that, he's not allowed to discuss it? I hate that this country has devolved into a place where people criticize athletes and entertainers as being good at one thing and they should only do one thing? We're all human beings and we all are multi-talented with varying interests and have the capability to speak out about any number of issues. This forum is great because I get to voice my opinion about the Angels.

I voice my opinions about politics or yoga or other things I enjoy on different forums or to friends and colleagues. My job is in sales, so I should just shut the F up and sell? Really? You've never complained about your boss? Or how things are going at your work?

 

[Angel Oracle]

15 hours ago, Scotty@AW said:

I don't feel he's wrong. I think that's part of the reason he chose the Angels. They offered a solid contract, but beyond that he enjoyed the clubhouse, the players. 

Mike Scioscia is great at creating that environment where players can thrive off the field. It might not always show up in the box score, and he makes some questionable decisions. But Upton enjoyed it, and he made sure he let Kinsler and Young know it.

This is what I will miss Sosh for, when he retires as Halos manager.

[tdawg87]

59 minutes ago, OHTANILAND said:

It appears that he thought he would get more offers and more money when he tested the market. The market obviously didn’t agree with his assessment. He ended up getting a nice 6/$132M with a full no trade which he freely accepted. He then gets traded to the Angels and gets a new deal and brings his buddy’s Phillips and Kinsler with him. He’s a rich man and he needs to STFU and play baseball. I sure hope he doesn’t end up becoming Melvin Upton.

Racist.

[Ohtaniland]

39 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

It appears you've found your newest Angel to demonize....   

No IP it’s not that at all. I like that we finally filled the void in left field with a talented player. I’m just not sure that his comments are even necessary at this point in his career. He’s move on from the Diamondbacks, Braves, Padres and Tigers. That’s 4 different owners that gave him opportunities to make a nice living. Arte is now the 5th. Shame on those corrupt bastards. 

[Hubs]

5 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

This is what I will miss Sosh for, when he retires as Halos manager.

Don't worry I think he's going to manage for at least 6 more years. He's only 59, and has managed for 18 seasons. Lasorda was 10 years older when he finished his 19th and last season in 1996.

He has 1570 career wins and a .538 winning percentage. He'll pass Lasorda this season hopefully in May. Lasorda has 1599 wins. This season will move him to 19th all time in wins if the Angels win at least 50 games. Which they of course will.

If he manages 5 more seasons after that, he'll end up somewhere around 2100 wins if he maintains his winning percentage of .538. That would put him around 9th all time.

Two more seasons after that and he'd pass Sparky Anderson. Joe Torre is currently 5th at 2326-1997. That would take some doing, but if he manages until he's 69, which would be 10 more seasons, and the same age Lasorda was when he retired, and maintained or improved his .538 winning percentage, he has an outside chance to finish 4th all time with only Connie Mack, John McGraw, and Tony LaRussa ahead of him. Bobby Cox is 4th with 2504 wins.

 

 

[Ohtaniland]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

Racist.

TORIITOWN says hi. 

I actually had a chance to eat lunch at a fundraiser with Larry Reynolds who is Upton’s agent and he represented Torii at the time. Great guy that told us at the table that all owners are different and they’re all unpredictable when asked if Torii was going to return. Its business and Upton should thank his lucky stars that he got what he got. Hope he performs as good as his contract is.