Las Vegas Shooting

[Tank]

15 minutes ago, TSD said:

I don't disagree on the ridiculousness of it being legal but a couple points:

It's a legal device at the moment and the manufacturer isn't liable if someone uses it for illegal means.  A car can kill but you can't sue Toyota if some idiot runs your family down maliciously.  This was not its intended use,  from a legal standpoint.

You would have a very hard time proving that this device was responsible for the death of your particular family member.  A semi auto can put a lot of bullets downrange without one.

I personally think abortion and serving alcohol to people when you know they are likely to drive home are terrible ideas, and many more lives have been taken because of these activities.  Part of freedom is tolerating things you don't agree with at times. Part of a civilized society is pursuing legal means to change things you disagree with.  I'm sure these devices will be illegal soon enough.

And that's a serious flaw in our system. What else would this device serve any kind of useful purpose for? This device allowed this SOB to rapid fire far more than he could have done with a semi, which caused greater destruction. That seems like a point that could easily be proven by a competent attorney. Maybe someone needs to be first to hold this company accountable for producing something so specifically intended to cause more destruction more quickly, not to mention something that seriously circumvents the law.

i would absolutely roll the dice on this one. You can argue alternative, legitimate and legal uses for cars. Not so with a kit that converts a military style weapon to full auto, which is illegal.

[arch stanton]

5 minutes ago, Tank said:

And that's a serious flaw in our system. What else would this device serve any kind of useful purpose for? This device allowed this SOB to rapid fire far more than he could have done with a semi, which caused greater destruction. That seems like a point that could easily be proven by a competent attorney. Maybe someone needs to be first to hold this company accountable for producing something so specifically intended to cause more destruction more quickly, not to mention something that seriously circumvents the law.

i would absolutely roll the dice on this one. You can argue alternative, legitimate and legal uses for cars. Not so with a kit that converts a military style weapon to full auto, which is illegal.

Every part of his rig is designed for the sole purpose of firing rounds. It's always been the purpose of any firearm. It's always been illegal to fire them at people except in certain cases of self-defense. Thus, it can be said that he's not using the products for their intended purpose. As much as you wish it were otherwise, these things exist and will continue to exist. We can ban them and create yet another black market and make some more Mexican gangsters ultra-rich. At some point we'll make Mexico so dangerous that they'll be able to come to the border and request asylum. That would eliminate the illegal immigrant problem....

[Lou]

13 hours ago, Adam said:

Hey! Calm down! It isn't like the most segregated areas of the country are progressive cities. 

YOU CALM DOWN!!!

[ten ocho recon scout]

5 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

L.A. Times reported yesterday the girlfriend was in Tokyo, now we hear she's in the Philippines.

No word on when (or if) she might return for questioning. Sheriff deflected questions about it today.

Something's not right here.

 

As someone who travels often, i think its probably something like her flight had a connection through Tokyo. Could be wrong, but getting her on an international flight last minute, probably had the least conveniant route.

[Tank]

Girlfriend landed at LAX a couple of hours ago.

[Tank]

1 hour ago, arch stanton said:

Every part of his rig is designed for the sole purpose of firing rounds. It's always been the purpose of any firearm. It's always been illegal to fire them at people except in certain cases of self-defense. Thus, it can be said that he's not using the products for their intended purpose. As much as you wish it were otherwise, these things exist and will continue to exist. We can ban them and create yet another black market and make some more Mexican gangsters ultra-rich. At some point we'll make Mexico so dangerous that they'll be able to come to the border and request asylum. That would eliminate the illegal immigrant problem....

Begrudgingly agree with you on the standard gun. Disagree with you on the addition he added to make it fire like an automatic.

[Mark68]

5 hours ago, TSD said:

The swearing really doesn't do much to make your point seem more credible, quite the opposite. Not impressing anyone.

Anyways.

Study after study has shown that the media is biased towards liberal viewpoints, and reporters are on average quite a bit to the left.  Have you ever lived anywhere besides California? I've lived in 5 states and most of the country is NOT liberal. Members of the media went so far as to give Hillary the debate questions ahead of time.  I didn't like either candidate but that's downright scary.  Hello Pravda.

As far as Obama race baiting, you're living in lala land.  He sent three representatives to the funeral of Michael Brown but none to Chris Kyle's. Three to Freddie Gray's but Margaret Thatcher, one of our strongest allies since WW2, yeah he sent no one.  He is the most racist President in history.  Honored drug dealing scumbags over soldiers and allies, all based on race.  Even criticized his own grandmother for being "white". Used the IRS to attack conservative groups.

I don't know anyone who didn't like him because he's (half) black.  The average person didn't like him because he was a liar, added more debt to our country than EVERY President before him combined,  made snide comments about anyone who disagreed with him, and in general was a do nothing bum who let other world leaders walk all over him.

The only people "responsible"for Trump being elected are the idiot dems, who illegally sabotaged Sanders, and tried to force the evil sociopath Hillary down our throats.  I'm glad it blew up in their face.

Don't presume to know me or where I've been...

With that being said, look at the ZIP code on my profile. You will see that it is most definitely NOT a ZIP code located in California. I have not resided within the borders of California for a quarter century. I have lived in five states as well, including such liberal hotbeds as Biloxi, Colorado Springs, and North Dallas. Where I currently reside is in a red suburb located in a very red county, a suburb of a bluish city in a purple state. 

I'm sure the studies that you're referencing have, I'm certain, also been referenced on such noted journalistic websites as Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, Breitbart, Newsmax, InfoWars, or on Fox News. What I do know is that there are more liberal than conservative people in this country. They may happen to be clustered near big cities and college towns, so they don't cover as vast an area as the red sections of the country, but they do make up the majority of the population where people actually live. If you don't believe me, look at the popular vote count in every presidential election for the last 50 years. That is, unless you believe Trump's baseless claims of three million fraudulent votes (because he can't STAND being a loser at anything). As for HIllary being given (two) debate questions prior to a town hall debate with Sanders, yeah, that had to do with Donna Brazile's association with both the DNC and CNN, and she was fired from CNN when they discovered that she had done so (and as a Dem, I hope that neither Brazile nor Debbie Wasserman-Schultz is given any management position in the DNC ever again). But don't pretend that there has never been any association between the mainstream media and talking heads on the right, either (Megyn Kelly, Tucker Carlson, Pat Buchanan, SE Cupp, just to name a few).

As for Obama, yes, he sent representatives to the funerals of Michael Brown and Freddie Gray. But (apparently) what your Breitbarts and Ben Shapiros AREN'T telling you is that he personally attended and spoke at the service for the Dallas PD officers that were ambushed (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/obama-comfort-dallas-citizens-families-slain-officers-article-1.2708280). These were all seminal moments that occurred during his presidency. He didn't attend Thatcher's funeral, however, he did ask two former Secretaries of State to attend, ones who actually had personal relationships with Thatcher (unlike Obama). Big deal. You know who else didn't go to Thatcher's funeral? Obama's predecessor, George W Bush (nor his father, who's been ill for a while, so it's understandable he didn't make the trip--http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-22103866). Are you aware of another former allied head of state whose funeral Obama did attend? Shimon Peres' (http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/30/middleeast/israel-shimon-peres-funeral/index.html). I'm sure you didn't see that on Breitbart or acknowledged by Ben Shapiro. Why didn't he attend Chris Kyle's funeral? Here may be some reasons why: https://www.quora.com/Why-when-Chris-Kyle-was-murdered-did-President-Obama-not-say-a-word-in-remembrance-of-him. I wonder...should he be expected to attend the funeral of every former service member who dies, either through natural or unnatural causes? If he did, and if that was expected of every president, there would literally be no time to actually do the job required of a president. You really think that any of this had to do with RACE? 

Obama did not criticize his grandmother for being white, however it may seem when taken out of context. He praised her constantly and pointed at her being an inspiration for his life and helping to raise him (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6522475&page=1).

Do you have proof that Obama ordered the IRS to target conservative groups? Because the case seems to center around Lois Lerner, who was appointed head of the Exempt Organizations Division (since 2006--two years before Obama was elected) and former IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman--who was appointed by Bush in 2008. Yeah, the conspiracy theories have run rife on this, but there is absolutely no evidence that Obama had prior knowledge--let alone ordered the targeting (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6522475&page=1 & http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/business/douglas-shulman-head-of-the-internal-revenue-service-to-step-down.html?_r=0).

I know a lot of people who don't like him because he was (half) black. and a lot who still won't admit that is a motivating factor, but it becomes apparent in conversations. And there's the whole "Birther" movement--which Trump certainly had a big hand in--which was nothing if not racist. 

All politicians lie. It's how they can do their job. We don't want to hear the unvarnished truth, no matter how much we say we do. Reagan lied. HW Bush lied. Clinton lied (and I really don't care that he lied about a blowjob), W Bush lied, Obama lied, Trump continues to lie. If you expect anything different, then you must live in a Pollyanna bubble.

This is where a lesson is necessary. Do you know the difference between the deficit and the debt? The deficit is the budget shortfall in any given fiscal year. The debt is the overall debt the government owes its creditors. The Obama Administration decreased the deficit, especially given the stimulus package that most economists agree had to be enacted to avoid a depression. Now, did the debt increase? Yes. You know why? Because defense spending continued to rise. This is the largest single portion of the budget. It's nearly impossible to rein in the deficit (and therefore the debt) while the defense budget continues to rise. That's a fact. What is also a fact is that it becomes even harder when you add tax cuts to the mix. So guess what? Whichever politician you support for president is never going to satisfy your desire to eliminate the debt. The same people who want to decrease the debt also seem to want more defense spending and less taxes. You can't have it both ways (https://www.thebalance.com/us-deficit-by-year-3306306). That actually should be common sense.

If he made a lot of snide comments about those who opposed him, he wouldn't be the first president to do so. He's certainly not the last (the current example makes no secret about it...he tweets many of his snide comments for public consumption). So this is what you base your hatred of Obama on? Seems pretty petty to me. 

I was a Sanders supporter, and yeah, I think he got the shaft (see my comments about Brazile/DWS above). But, at the end of the day, the blame for the Trump victory can be attributed to many factors:

1) The DNC

2) Hillary (especially not campaigning in the Midwest--this, I think, ultimately doomed her--although her lack of charisma or a defined platform played a large role)

3) All the free press/coverage that Trump received (yes, it was a factor)

4) Xenophobia (including racism, anti-Muslim sentiment--it was definitely a nonzero factor)

5) Protectionism

There may be other factors I'm overlooking, but those are the five I can come up with off the top of my head.

By the way, I have read Ayn Rand. I have read Karl Marx. Both of them espoused political/economic philosophies that are untenable and unrealistic in the real world. I have read many authors/theorists in between (but certainly not all that I would like to read). I have come to my views through reading, research, and self-reflection. 

Also, the reason I have been to some of the cities and states I mentioned above--I am a veteran. I have served my country, because, despite its flaws, and there are many, it is still the BEST FUCKING COUNTRY that has ever existed. I want it to be better. 

So, now you know a little about me. Please don't insult my intelligence. It's not impressing anyone.

[Amazing Larry]

That had to make the top 10 longest posts in AW history list. 

[Lou]

3 hours ago, LHalo said:

That had to make the top 10 longest posts in AW history list. 

And like the other nine, I scrolled right through it. 

[Lou]

Hey! As I scrolled through it again, one word popped out at me.  Here's a hint: 

 

[Lou]

19 hours ago, Lou said:

But they're not living in the Pork and Beans 

@Adam nothing?

[gotbeer]

6 hours ago, Tank said:

And that's a serious flaw in our system. What else would this device serve any kind of useful purpose for? This device allowed this SOB to rapid fire far more than he could have done with a semi, which caused greater destruction. That seems like a point that could easily be proven by a competent attorney. Maybe someone needs to be first to hold this company accountable for producing something so specifically intended to cause more destruction more quickly, not to mention something that seriously circumvents the law.

i would absolutely roll the dice on this one. You can argue alternative, legitimate and legal uses for cars. Not so with a kit that converts a military style weapon to full auto, which is illegal.

Rapid firing a gun, is quite the thrill.  Can't do it at most ranges.  But out in the wilderness like the chick was doing.  It's an absolute adrenaline rush.  In car terms, I would compare it to pushing the red line on your car.  Either by drag racing, or max speeding it.  Either of which can go south very quickly.  But people still do it for the thrills.

[ten ocho recon scout]

8 hours ago, Jason said:

As far as this shooting goes, stuff isn’t adding up to me. Seems like a difficult task to do this with no help. This dude had plenty of ammo to shoot up the cops too but he blows his brains out? Maybe @Vladdylonglegs can back me up here. I generally don’t buy into conspiracies but this one feels like there’s more to it

Most active shooters end up killing themselves when PD arrives (statwise)

[Lou]

15 hours ago, Mark68 said:

But his base really doesn't give a shit. That's what's unsettling. I believe that Trump is horrible for our country in a way that is totally unprecedented, and his base couldn't care less. He's horrible for his base, too, but they don't see it.

Or, now brace yourself because what follows may be a bit unnerving, other people don't agree with your belief. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Lou

[Lou]

5 hours ago, Tank said:

Girlfriend landed at LAX a couple of hours ago.

awesome.

Does your wife know?

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, gotbeer said:

Rapid firing a gun, is quite the thrill.  Can't do it at most ranges.  But out in the wilderness like the chick was doing.  It's an absolute adrenaline rush.  In car terms, I would compare it to pushing the red line on your car.  Either by drag racing, or max speeding it.  Either of which can go south very quickly.  But people still do it for the thrills.

Agreed.

In all honesty, going back to what i said earlier about how im not a big shooter, its mainly because of this. I employed all sorts of cool (full auto, belt fed, crew served, explosives, missile, etc) weapons in the military. So semi auto handguns and rifles dont turn me on.

They shouldnt be available to rhe public though, because of assholes like this guy. Those ranges in vegas where you can rent are fine (expensive as hell). But this dude had something like 12 SAW setups in that room...if he had a few friends....

[ten ocho recon scout]

34 minutes ago, Lou said:

awesome.

Does your wife know?

When Tank lies to his wife about picking up his girlfriend, she probably plays along...then goes to a steakhouse.

They both have secrets.

[ten ocho recon scout]

6 hours ago, Tank said:

Girlfriend landed at LAX a couple of hours ago.

6 hours ago.

She should be out of the customs line in another hour or so. 

[Spirit]

10 hours ago, Lou said:

And just because this is so damn funny...

 

 

Never gets old.

 

[Jason]

9 hours ago, Tank said:

With automatic weapons being illegal, how is something like this even remotely legal?!? If me or one of my family was a victim in Vegas, I would sue the living hell out of the manufacturer of that device and whoever sold it. It's time to hold companies like this one accountable for what they're selling. This is a product that has no business being in the hands of any single one of us.

I think you will see them get axed now. The gun is still technically semi automatic, believe it or not

[Jason]

9 hours ago, red321 said:

I missed Juan Savage

I totally forgot about that dude

[fan_since79]

10 hours ago, Jason said:

As far as this shooting goes, stuff isn’t adding up to me. Seems like a difficult task to do this with no help. This dude had plenty of ammo to shoot up the cops too but he blows his brains out? Maybe @Vladdylonglegs can back me up here. I generally don’t buy into conspiracies but this one feels like there’s more to it

When I saw the second window blown out on the other side of the suite, it suggested another shooter to me. I haven't heard anything about that in the news conferences, no mention of whether he moved from one window to another during his rampage. It hasn't been addressed.

 

[Amazing Larry]

31 minutes ago, Jason said:

I think you will see them get axed now. The gun is still technically semi automatic, believe it or not

I'm all for a ban on bump stocks. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 minutes ago, LHalo said:

I'm all for a ban on bump stocks. 

You can actuall make a rifle do the same thing as the slide fire stock, without actully buying one. 

As bad as the stocks are (and agree, they should be banned), high cap mags played just as much of a roll in this.

[ten ocho recon scout]

26 minutes ago, fan_since79 said:

When I saw the second window blown out on the other side of the suite, it suggested another shooter to me. I haven't heard anything about that in the news conferences, no mention of whether he moved from one window to another during his rampage. It hasn't been addressed.

 

I could be wrong, id have to go back and rewatch (and im too lazy), but youd hear at least at some point two different weapons. At least from what ive watched, you dont.

I also think the PD guys who were calling it out would have picked up on it. They could see the shooter when it forst started. Im sure they would have seen a second.