Is it time to add?

[Docwaukee]

3 hours ago, floplag said:

ok walking back away from this necro... i cant even concive throwing away any more of Trouts years, some of you are doing it willingly... peace out on that one i simply cannot agree

that's a bit dramatic don't you think flop?  Are you saying that if they don't get Verlander right now we are completely throwing about the rest of Trout's contract?

He's got 3 more years.  Verlander is 34 and owed 60 mil for his age 35 and 36 yo seasons.  He's also starting to show his age a bit.  I think is Arte were willing to take on any more money this year, he'd have done it by now.  There is the possibility, however, that the prorated salary of Verlander for this year needs a little more time to drop below a level that would put us over the CBT threshold.  We are currently only about 7 mil below.  

I believe that Arte will stay generous yet disciplined.  We'll spend close to the threshold for 2018/19/20.  I could see us going over a bit in 2020/21 but we may still not.  But I agree with Robert in that I can think of better ways to spend 30mil per for the next two years.  Personally, I'd rather make the long term commitment on Stanton.  

But I don't want them to panic and make a desperation move for a shot at playing one more game this year and have it result in huge restrictions for the next two years.  

[Jeff Williams]

10 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

Verlander is not going to be a FA, he's signed through 2021 at approx 28 million a year aav.  He's a fucking disaster waiting to happen.

The Angels line up is not good.  Its objectively terrible.  We have the 28th OPS in the league and have scored the 24th most runs.  We're terrible by just about any offensive metric.  

The bullpen is fine, but not remotely the "best in baseball" 

I encourage you to go bet $1000 on the Angels winning the world series.  You seem very confident. 

Figure of speech. He has a 2020 option actually.  2.5-3.5 year term left beats having to deal with other free agent bidding wars at 7-10 years while they're expected to spend after Hamilton's falling off this year.  Getting the early jump of putting that to Verlander might not be the bad alternative if they can get him from the Tigers without having to give up too much.  Supposedly, the Tigers are looking for that taker of his remaining money, mainly.

You're a Debbie Downer, aren't you?!  On top of their resilience, what matters is their MLB rankings with offensive winning categories behind a stellar bullpen that has been the aiding backbone to the starting rotation all season.

[UndertheHalo]

6 minutes ago, Jeff Williams said:

Figure of speech. He as a 2020 option actually.  2.5-3.5 year term left beats having to deal with other free agent bidding wars at 7-10 years while they're expected to spend after Hamilton's falling off this.  Getting the early jump of putting that to Verlander might not be the bad alternative if they can get him from the Tigers without having to give up too much.  Supposedly, the Tigers are looking for that taker of his remaining money, mainly.

You're a Debbie Downer, aren't you?!  On top of their resilience, what matters is their MLB rankings with offensive winning categories behind a stellar bullpen that has been the aiding backbone to the starting rotation all season.

please bet.

[SigBaby]

As was evident last year, the playoffs is all about bullpen. Ramirez, Skaggs, Bridwell, Heaney are all solid for 5 innings. If we can get back Richards, I'd use him as a relief ace and maybe even give him a shot at closing. I think what this team could really use is a lefty specialist. I don't think we've had one since Scott Downs. Adding a lefty and getting Richards back would give us a very solid bullpen. 

[floplag]

8 hours ago, Dochalo said:

that's a bit dramatic don't you think flop?  Are you saying that if they don't get Verlander right now we are completely throwing about the rest of Trout's contract?

He's got 3 more years.  Verlander is 34 and owed 60 mil for his age 35 and 36 yo seasons.  He's also starting to show his age a bit.  I think is Arte were willing to take on any more money this year, he'd have done it by now.  There is the possibility, however, that the prorated salary of Verlander for this year needs a little more time to drop below a level that would put us over the CBT threshold.  We are currently only about 7 mil below.  

I believe that Arte will stay generous yet disciplined.  We'll spend close to the threshold for 2018/19/20.  I could see us going over a bit in 2020/21 but we may still not.  But I agree with Robert in that I can think of better ways to spend 30mil per for the next two years.  Personally, I'd rather make the long term commitment on Stanton.  

But I don't want them to panic and make a desperation move for a shot at playing one more game this year and have it result in huge restrictions for the next two years.  

No, not at all, what im saying is being patient and allowing the farm time to develop in a vaccum is doing that as its at least that far off and we should all know that.  

It isnt about Verlander,  or Stanton or any one deal or deals, the answer is the same regardless. 

I dont want a desperation move, i want a smart move, but an aggressive one that gives this team now the chance i feel it deserves.  What that actually means is open to interpretation nad has a lot of variables, but i assure you it doesnt mean trading everyone for a rental, ive never suggesting anything of the sort.  

[eligrba]

18 minutes ago, floplag said:

No, not at all, what im saying is being patient and allowing the farm time to develop in a vaccum is doing that as its at least that far off and we should all know that.  

It isnt about Verlander,  or Stanton or any one deal or deals, the answer is the same regardless. 

I dont want a desperation move, i want a smart move, but an aggressive one that gives this team now the chance i feel it deserves.  What that actually means is open to interpretation nad has a lot of variables, but i assure you it doesnt mean trading everyone for a rental, ive never suggesting anything of the sort.  

Obviously you missed the Angels in the 70's and 80's.  The long term success this organization enjoyed during the Scioscia tenure resulted from patience and a well developed farm.

[DMVol]

7 hours ago, SigBaby said:

As was evident last year, the playoffs is all about bullpen. Ramirez, Skaggs, Bridwell, Heaney are all solid for 5 innings. If we can get back Richards, I'd use him as a relief ace and maybe even give him a shot at closing. I think what this team could really use is a lefty specialist. I don't think we've had one since Scott Downs. Adding a lefty and getting Richards back would give us a very solid bullpen. 

Scioscia has said they won't use Richards in the pen....some concern about the unpredictable nature of bullpen work that they don't want to expose him to....I thought maybe you could manage his relief appearances to minimize concerns but Scioscia said they were looking at him strictly as a starter, I guess to better control his routine....

[Docwaukee]

9 minutes ago, floplag said:

No, not at all, what im saying is being patient and allowing the farm time to develop in a vaccum is doing that as its at least that far off and we should all know that.  

It isnt about Verlander,  or Stanton or any one deal or deals, the answer is the same regardless. 

I dont want a desperation move, i want a smart move, but an aggressive one that gives this team now the chance i feel it deserves.  What that actually means is open to interpretation nad has a lot of variables, but i assure you it doesnt mean trading everyone for a rental, ive never suggesting anything of the sort.  

but you understand that right now we are within 7 mil of the CBT threshold and going over by a couple mil to trigger the tax and increasing year to year penalties is not something Arte is going to do.  I agree they should be aggressive in acquiring some talent this off season (or even now if possible) that isn't a rental.  I think they will in the winter but not right now.  My guess is that Arte will approve adding to within about 10mil of the threshold.  Relative to the tax threshold, we're going to have about 30-40 mil to spend this off season.  We have a lot of needs to fill for that amount.  

[Jeff Williams]

Down-Under doesn't seem to give their pen high enough appraise with their ability to shorten for winning games.  Particularly, while Chavez' live arm was added to it recently.  Him, Parker, Bedrosian, Middleton, Norris, Parades, Bailey (yet to come in after returning from the DL).  A lefty specialist might not be necessary.  

The Dodgers got Darvish, I would think Arte might be exploring a Verlander possibility to his battle for LA.  

[Lou]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Williams said:

Bailey (yet to come in after returning from the DL).  A lefty specialist might not be necessary.  

Bailey pitched in one game.

[Lou]

And the dodgers have more money than they know what do with.

[totdprods]

21 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

but you understand that right now we are within 7 mil of the CBT threshold and going over by a couple mil to trigger the tax and increasing year to year penalties is not something Arte is going to do.  I agree they should be aggressive in acquiring some talent this off season (or even now if possible) that isn't a rental.  I think they will in the winter but not right now.  My guess is that Arte will approve adding to within about 10mil of the threshold.  Relative to the tax threshold, we're going to have about 30-40 mil to spend this off season.  We have a lot of needs to fill for that amount.  

Why wouldn't he? He's done it once before (albeit several, several seasons ago, 2003?), and they were on pace to go over last year after they brought in Lincecum and Chacin. They only got under after dealing Smith and Salas away. 

I really don't think the luxury tax threshold is that big of a deal. I'm sure it's still something they really want to avoid as it, but I don't think it's that firm of a line. Not suggesting (or expecting) Arte/Eppler to do so because I think Eppler is really trying to maintain as much financial flexibility as possible in order to keep the team competitive year-to-year but the front office has bluntly said before that they will spend to the point of it costing them players (in terms of the draft and international amateurs) and going over the tax for the right player/situation so scenarios in which that happens shouldn't be too far-fetched.
 

[Jeff Williams]

1 IP Aug 15, Tue, @ Wash. to game out of reach against Gio among the top NL ERA pitchers.  Since, the games have been too tight for him to come in while playing in the hot and humid Band Box Baltimore over the weekend.  Which, the BP looked well in line despite the Machado GS without Bailey.  Makes me wonder if they put him on the wire.

[floplag]

1 hour ago, eligrba said:

Obviously you missed the Angels in the 70's and 80's.  The long term success this organization enjoyed during the Scioscia tenure resulted from patience and a well developed farm.

No i was right in the middle of that and the difference is beyond comparison.  We didnt have the TV deal we have now, we didnt have expectations and promises of being better than that.  There is no way you can reasonable compare todays Angels to the Autry days, none.  dont even go there i know better.   To even try to use that to exaplin today is reaching at best. 

[floplag]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

but you understand that right now we are within 7 mil of the CBT threshold and going over by a couple mil to trigger the tax and increasing year to year penalties is not something Arte is going to do.  I agree they should be aggressive in acquiring some talent this off season (or even now if possible) that isn't a rental.  I think they will in the winter but not right now.  My guess is that Arte will approve adding to within about 10mil of the threshold.  Relative to the tax threshold, we're going to have about 30-40 mil to spend this off season.  We have a lot of needs to fill for that amount.  

I understand completely, so what?

The tax is what 195 Mil i think?  We have a TV deal worth 150 M per year so payrolls costs are what, currently less than 40 mil? 

So lets say we went over by even as much 20 mil.. as a first time offender we would have to pay i think 17% of that, or a whopping 3.7 mil. with the bad money falling off we would be right back under next year so were talking about a 1 year penalty... one damn year.  

Are we to believe that unreasonable at this point with 3 mil fans every year, Trout merchandise flying in every ML city etc... Are we actually suggesting we cant afford more or less whatever the hades we want? 

I thought we were done being the old time bargain basement angels and Dodgers little bitch, i guess i was wrong. 

[ettin]

14 hours ago, floplag said:

ok walking back away from this necro... i cant even concive throwing away any more of Trouts years, some of you are doing it willingly... peace out on that one i simply cannot agree

I didn't say waste Trout years. In fact I have probably been one of the biggest, if not the biggest (that's not a weight joke), proponents of maximizing the Trout window.

What I absolutely don't agree with is that Justin Verlander is a solution for us!!!! Stop projecting and read my original comment flop. I clearly stated what Eppler should be looking for and in my opinion Verlander is not that. He is owed way too much money for just a couple of years of time. He doesn't fit well with the Angels, again, in my opinion.

You feel differently. It's okay to disagree on player choices. We do agree completely on not wasting Trout's window of contention. I've written about this MULTIPLE times over the last 2-3 years. It is not a new position for me nor will it change.

[floplag]

9 minutes ago, ettin said:

I didn't say waste Trout years. In fact I have probably been one of the biggest, if not the biggest (that's not a weight joke), proponents of maximizing the Trout window.

What I absolutely don't agree with is that Justin Verlander is a solution for us!!!! Stop projecting and read my original comment flop. I clearly stated what Eppler should be looking for and in my opinion Verlander is not that. He is owed way too much money for just a couple of years of time. He doesn't fit well with the Angels, again, in my opinion.

You feel differently. It's okay to disagree on player choices. We do agree completely on not wasting Trout's window of contention. I've written about this MULTIPLE times over the last 2-3 years. It is not a new position for me nor will it change.

Dude, i hear you, but it literally doesnt matter what name you suggest, it gets shit all over.  People want the perfect deal without risk, it doesnt exist.  
If Justin Verlander and Giancarlo Stanton wont get people to part of the these kids in A ball, noone will, its literally become a moot subject.  

[ettin]

Just now, floplag said:

Dude, i hear you, but it literally doesnt matter what name you suggest, it gets shit all over.  People want the perfect deal without risk, it doesnt exist.  
If Justin Verlander and Giancarlo Stnaton wont get people to part of the these kids in a ball, noone will, its literally become a moot subject.  

So a small group of examples I would get behind:

* Giancarlo Stanton

* Drew Storen

* Marcus Stroman

* Christian Yelich

* Eugenio Suarez

* Daniel Norris

* Michael Fulmer

This group is either controllable for three or more years or only one year as in the case of Drew Storen who we could use to reinforce the bullpen.

I think a lot of people on here would be happy if we acquired someone like Stanton to be honest. I think this has more to do with Verlander than other names to be honest.

 

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, floplag said:

Dude, i hear you, but it literally doesnt matter what name you suggest, it gets shit all over.  People want the perfect deal without risk, it doesnt exist.  
If Justin Verlander and Giancarlo Stanton wont get people to part of the these kids in A ball, noone will, its literally become a moot subject.  

Give me a break flop.  How bout choosing a pitcher that isn't 33 that is making $30 million a year, or a hitter that doesn't have the largest contract in American Sports History.  

[floplag]

10 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Give me a break flop.  How bout choosing a pitcher that isn't 33 that is making $30 million a year, or a hitter that doesn't have the largest contract in American Sports History.  

Give YOU a break?  lol   OK  Name one thats available, just.... one.   OK actually let me clarify, names one who are actually rumored to be available that even our entire farm might actually get?  Were talking about realistic options here, taking on money over giving up farm.  
There is literally not one of those guys even remotely supposedly available, not one.   The whole point is that we have to look at contracts to lessen the prospect requirement.  You know this.   Now you want me to find you someone thats NOT that?  really?  then you just come back at me with not wanting to trade top prospects allllll over again.  
Its catch-22 and youre playing both sides.   

[floplag]

18 minutes ago, ettin said:

So a small group of examples I would get behind:

* Giancarlo Stanton

* Drew Storen

* Marcus Stroman

* Christian Yelich

* Eugenio Suarez

* Daniel Norris

* Michael Fulmer

This group is either controllable for three or more years or only one year as in the case of Drew Storen who we could use to reinforce the bullpen.

I think a lot of people on here would be happy if we acquired someone like Stanton to be honest. I think this has more to do with Verlander than other names to be honest.

 

and any of those are even rumored to be available?  if so i havent read it.   And how do we even get into that conversation with our farm?
Whatever im done, like i said you guys want it both ways, and it doesnt exist.  

[Angel Oracle]

Ten days until the deadline to be eligible for post-season play

I wonder if with Revere, Calhoun, and Valbuena improving at the plate, if Eppler is focused on adding either a mid-rotation guy or backend pen guy for the stretch drive.   Health questions abound in the rotation, and the pen may be gassed.

[mtangelsfan]

I think the only adding will be done on Arte's adding machine while he counts his money.

[DMVol]

1 minute ago, Angel Oracle said:

Ten days until the deadline to be eligible for post-season play

I'd consider Brandon Phillips, any pitcher that makes a difference...but not at the price of a premium prospect....

[Stradling]

57 minutes ago, floplag said:

If Justin Verlander and Giancarlo Stanton wont get people to part of the these kids in A ball, noone will, its literally become a moot subject.  

This is the part I take exception with.  If we don't want to part with our best prospects for a bloated contract then we won't part with them for anyone is basically what you're getting at.  I'd rather had the Angels go after a Granderson type.