Next Year's Rotation

[Dtwncbad]

2 minutes ago, zenmaster said:

This team desperately needs an Ace. I don't think we have one capable of it right now.

I want an "ace" too. . .but I would settle for a proven 180 inning type that doesnt stink.  Somebody who was not an obvious injury risk.

Any pitcher can go down, sure.  But for planning purposes it might be nice to have a guy most would bet will make 32 starts and not stink.

[ScruffytheJanitor]

43 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Well, I was citing a problem and I guess you agree?

I originally mentioned that the Angels did not have one good bet to log 180 decent innings.

Yes, there might be about 10 guys in the AL that end up with 200 innings.  I think it was 9 or 10 last year.

Spread across the league that would mean 2/3 of teams would have one.

Since the Angels are supposed to be a premium franchise in a big market, I would kinda expect the Angels would be in the 2/3 of teams that have someone like that.

Since they don't, I believe the GM should probably be fairly focused on getting a body that provides stability.

I think there is a HUGE vacancy at the top of the rotation, and I am willing to be a broken record on that point when I see people talking about having depth or lots of starting pitching for 2018.

 

 

I feel like you are talking about two separate things. It is possible for a team to need a workhorse, top-of-the-rotation starter while also having a lot of mid-rotation arms. I think it's possible for the team to have no aces, a solid #2, and 5 guys or so that are (or at least can be) solid #3/#4 starters.  

[Dtwncbad]

20 minutes ago, ScruffytheJanitor said:

I feel like you are talking about two separate things. It is possible for a team to need a workhorse, top-of-the-rotation starter while also having a lot of mid-rotation arms. I think it's possible for the team to have no aces, a solid #2, and 5 guys or so that are (or at least can be) solid #3/#4 starters.  

Maybe as long as you feel like you can count on them.

The Angels have almost nobody they can count on.

[Angel Oracle]

20 minutes ago, ScruffytheJanitor said:

I feel like you are talking about two separate things. It is possible for a team to need a workhorse, top-of-the-rotation starter while also having a lot of mid-rotation arms. I think it's possible for the team to have no aces, a solid #2, and 5 guys or so that are (or at least can be) solid #3/#4 starters.  

The 2002 team did follow that guideline...Wash was a #2 type, and the others were #3's (Ortiz and Lackey) and #4's/#5's (Appier and Sele). 

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Maybe as long as you feel like you can count on them.

The Angels have almost nobody they can count on.

Ok.  How do you go about acquiring one if you are the Angels?  

[Dtwncbad]

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

The 2002 team did follow that guideline...Wash was a #2 type, and the others were #3's (Ortiz and Lackey) and #4's/#5's (Appier and Sele). 

Of course if Richards, Heaney, Skaggs, Shoemaker, and the rest would all be healthy. . .then the team needs no pitching.

If my aunt had balls. . .

[Angels#1Fan]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

I think there is a HUGE vacancy at the top of the rotation, and I am willing to be a broken record on that point when I see people talking about having depth or lots of starting pitching for 2018.

Completely agree.

There's not only a huge vacancy at the top of the rotation, there's also a huge vacancy of pitchers that aren't coming off of major injuries.

If what we have right now (Richards, Skaggs, Heaney, Trop, Shoemaker, etc) is what we are going to count on for next year then we are in big trouble.

Those guys (Richards, Skaggs, Heaney, Trop, Shoemaker) are all damaged goods that can't be counted on. The odds say a couple of those guys will bounce back but getting many innings out of them next year is just betting on the come. Of those five guys only two (Richards and Shoemaker) have had any real success at the ML level. Believing that Skaggs, Heaney, and Trop are going to be effective starters that can be counted on to pitch 180+ innings next year is just wishful thinking.

If the Angels aren't able to come up with a couple of starters for next season it's just going to be the same thing all over again.

[Angels#1Fan]

12 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok.  How do you go about acquiring one if you are the Angels?  

This is the real problem.

The Angels have so many holes at the present time it might not be possible for them to go out and get an arm or two.

Just what are the Angels going to focus on in the off season...2B, LF, 1B, rotation, bullpen?  

There's no help coming from the minors so.........

[UndertheHalo]

i'd be fine with giving Darvish a big contract.  He's only 30, which for ace FA pitchers isn't terrible and he seems to have come back from the tommy john pretty strong. no matter what, if we're gonna fast track success we're gonna need some luck.  Darvish seems like as good a bet as any.  Certainly safer the multiple raging tire fires we have now that can never ever get healthy.

As far as our guys, I guess I can't think of any real reason to not expect that at least Heaney and Tropeano will be able to come back and join the rotation full time.  I have no faith in Richards and Skaggs and I don't know whats going on with Shoemaker.

[UndertheHalo]

2 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

This is the real problem.

The Angels have so many holes at the present time it might not be possible for them to go out and get an arm or two.

Just what are the Angels going to focus on in the off season...2B, LF, 1B, rotation, bullpen?  

There's no help coming from the minors so.........

don't forget 3b.  thats gonna be a problem again next year as well.

[totdprods]

2 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

i'd be fine with giving Darvish a big contract.  He's only 30, which for ace FA pitchers isn't terrible and he seems to have come back from the tommy john pretty strong. no matter what, if we're gonna fast track success we're gonna need some luck.  Darvish seems like as good a bet as any.  Certainly safer the multiple raging tire fires we have now that can never ever get healthy.

As far as our guys, I guess I can't think of any real reason to not expect that at least Heaney and Tropeano will be able to come back and join the rotation full time.  I have no faith in Richards and Skaggs and I don't know whats going on with Shoemaker.

Darvish is the one guy who, if they did opt to spend really big on a SP, I'd be fine with. 

My chief concern - will a 6/$150m (or whatever the hell he gets) type contract greatly affect how we fill 3B, 2B, LF, bench, pen, and possibly 1B?
That's why I think a 3/$36m or 4/$60m deal for a mid-tier arm could be beneficial still. Still helps the rotation, still keeps money flowing for our many other needs. 

I anticipate Eppler filling one of those holes by trade, either this deadline or in the offseason. Likely one spot filled by a prospect/cheap platoon, but there's still a lot of holes to fill, and an ace contract will really put the squeeze on.

[Stradling]

When I look at our holes My prioritized list is:

2nd base

LF

3rd base

1st base

Starting pitcher

Bench

[UndertheHalo]

2 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Darvish is the one guy who, if they did opt to spend really big on a SP, I'd be fine with. 

My chief concern - will a 6/$150m (or whatever the hell he gets) type contract greatly affect how we fill 3B, 2B, LF, bench, pen, and possibly 1B?
That's why I think a 3/$36m or 4/$60m deal for a mid-tier arm could be beneficial still. Still helps the rotation, still keeps money flowing for our many other needs. 

I anticipate Eppler filling one of those holes by trade, either this deadline or in the offseason. Likely one spot filled by a prospect/cheap platoon, but there's still a lot of holes to fill, and an ace contract will really put the squeeze on.

its a bad situation for sure.  i sort of feel like with a guy like Darvish (and i think u agree) we can at least predict what we're gonna get with some confidence.  More so then with a lot of the FA bats anyway.  Heres to hoping one of Epplers dumpster dives pays off. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by UndertheHalo

[UndertheHalo]

5 minutes ago, Stradling said:

When I look at our holes My prioritized list is:

2nd base

LF

3rd base

1st base

Starting pitcher

Bench

when i look at the available FA, at 2b it looks like Neil Walker or Ian Kinsler are our best options.  At 3b, the Moose.  Upton is probably the best bat we could use period, but if its him or a guy like Darvish.....  I don't think your priority list is wrong, but I don't think the pieces are there for the taking.  GIve me Darvish.

Edited July 19, 2017 by UndertheHalo

[Stradling]

If you have $40 million to spend this off-season, how do you spend it?

[Dtwncbad]

5 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

i'd be fine with giving Darvish a big contract.  He's only 30, which for ace FA pitchers isn't terrible and he seems to have come back from the tommy john pretty strong. no matter what, if we're gonna fast track success we're gonna need some luck.  Darvish seems like as good a bet as any.  Certainly safer the multiple raging tire fires we have now that can never ever get healthy.

As far as our guys, I guess I can't think of any real reason to not expect that at least Heaney and Tropeano will be able to come back and join the rotation full time.  I have no faith in Richards and Skaggs and I don't know whats going on with Shoemaker.

I like Heaney and have hope for him.  Personally, I don't feel much enthusiasm for Tropeano because my gut tells me he is just depth at #5.  Since depth at #5 is typically not a very big obstacle, he doesn't  (to me) represent anything of high value.

I would love to be proven wrong on Tropeano just as I was mostly wrong on Shoemaker.  I thought Shoemaker would turn into a pumpkin at midnight.  I thought he was "smoke and "mirrors" that would not play going forward. . .what I was wrong on was his smoke and mirrors work ENOUGH to give him value.

[totdprods]

Just now, UndertheHalo said:

its a bad situation for sure.  i sort of feel like with a guy like Darvish (and i think u agree) we can at least predict what we're gonna get with some confidence.  More so then, with a lot of the FA bats anyway.  Heres to hoping one of Epplers dumpster dives pays off. 

The Angels had a lot of interest in him when he was a high-schooler. Obviously a different FO then, but still under Arte's watch, and I'm sure he would have been looped in with a 'prospect' of his potential cost. I'm sure the Yankees were keeping tabs on him when Eppler was there. And there will always be some interest in poaching away an impact player from a rival team, even if it's burned us bad with Wilson and Hamilton. 

We all know we need a TORP, a dynamic lead-off hitter, a power hitter, someone at 3B, someone at LF, someone at 2B, but there's nothing in Eppler's history to suggest he's going to fill all of those with the best fit, the most impact fit, the most expensive or even mid-tier fits. Some will be imperfect. Some will be rebounds. If we get Darvish, I imagine a contract of that magnitude will really limit what Eppler does elsewhere. He's been much more measured/conservative in his approach each offseason so far, so I expect mid-tier (at-best) across the board, or a big splash and very minimal commitments elsewhere. Which seems more likely?

[UndertheHalo]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

I like Heaney and have hope for him.  Personally, I don't feel much enthusiasm for Tropeano because my gut tells me he is just depth at #5.  Since depth at #5 is typically not a very big obstacle, he doesn't  (to me) represent anything of high value.

I would love to be proven wrong on Tropeano just as I was mostly wrong on Shoemaker.  I thought Shoemaker would turn into a pumpkin at midnight.  I thought he was "smoke and "mirrors" that would not play going forward. . .what I was wrong on was his smoke and mirrors work ENOUGH to give him value.

yea, i agree.  I'm just saying that as far as health goes.  I'm hopeful we can anticipate health.  I'd put Trop on a bit higher level then a guy like Meyer for example tho.  We seem to have several Meyer types.  Tropeano had been getting around to being pretty solid for us.  Though, probably lower end of the rotation solid.

[Dtwncbad]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

If you have $40 million to spend this off-season, how do you spend it?

I spend $70 million and fix the team and win.

[UndertheHalo]

2 minutes ago, totdprods said:

The Angels had a lot of interest in him when he was a high-schooler. Obviously a different FO then, but still under Arte's watch, and I'm sure he would have been looped in with a 'prospect' of his potential cost. I'm sure the Yankees were keeping tabs on him when Eppler was there. And there will always be some interest in poaching away an impact player from a rival team, even if it's burned us bad with Wilson and Hamilton. 

We all know we need a TORP, a dynamic lead-off hitter, a power hitter, someone at 3B, someone at LF, someone at 2B, but there's nothing in Eppler's history to suggest he's going to fill all of those with the best fit, the most impact fit, the most expensive or even mid-tier fits. Some will be imperfect. Some will be rebounds. If we get Darvish, I imagine a contract of that magnitude will really limit what Eppler does elsewhere. He's been much more measured/conservative in his approach each offseason so far, so I expect mid-tier (at-best) across the board, or a big splash and very minimal commitments elsewhere. Which seems more likely?

i would hope it would be the big splash.  again, just because of what we can safely hope to expect.  I feel like mid range guys.  Walker, etc.  theres so much uncertainty with what can hope to get.  I'm so sick of the Matt Joyce, Danny Espinosa disasters.  I know those guys aren't exactly mid tier but they're close.  It would be nice to get someone thats not likely to explode in our faces.  

And I know its kinda funny for me to say that after we've been recently f'd by Josh Hamilton.  Still, I don't think thats the norm with really high end guys.  I'd consider Darvish a top tier sort of talent.

[totdprods]

I'm still a little skeptical of Tropeano. His FIP was 5.27, WHIP was 1.48, his H/9 was 9.2 and his BB/9 was 4.1 
He was able to save himself with strikeouts but he's gotta cut down on the walks and hits or he's going to have a hard time being more than a #5/spot-starter type.
 

 

[Troll Daddy]

Tropeano really hasn't been part of the rotation in my view ... he's a prospect who may not make the rotation when healthy. 

 

[totdprods]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

i would hope it would be the big splash.  again, just because of what we can safely hope to expect.  I feel like mid range guys.  Walker, etc.  theres so much uncertainty with what can hope to get.  I'm so sick of the Matt Joyce, Danny Espinosa disasters.  I know those guys aren't exactly mid tier but they're close.  It would be nice to get someone thats not likely to explode in our faces.  

And I know its kinda funny for me to say that after we've been recently f'd by Josh Hamilton.  Still, I don't think thats the norm with really high end guys.  I'd consider Darvish a top tier sort of talent.

Luis Valbuena sure seemed like a mid-tier type guy who was a safe bet to produce a la Neil Walker and here we are. 
Walker makes me pretty nervous. He'll command some dough and has missed quite a bit of time with back injuries the last two seasons. For someone entering their mid-thirties, that's quite a red flag, especially at a position as demanding as 2B. 

[Angel Oracle]

15 minutes ago, Stradling said:

When I look at our holes My prioritized list is:

2nd base

LF

3rd base

1st base

Starting pitcher

Bench

All of the first 5 are in critical need of upgrading.   Maybin proved to be a 1.5 months wonder, who otherwise struggled and gets hurt too often.

[UndertheHalo]

4 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Luis Valbuena sure seemed like a mid-tier type guy who was a safe bet to produce a la Neil Walker and here we are. 
Walker makes me pretty nervous. He'll command some dough and has missed quite a bit of time with back injuries the last two seasons. For someone entering their mid-thirties, that's quite a red flag, especially at a position as demanding as 2B. 

haha, i momentarily forgot about Valbuena !! we've had so many guys play so fucking badly for us.  But yea further illustrates our endless failure with those types of guys.

Edited July 19, 2017 by UndertheHalo