Second Base

[Brent Maguire]

Dee Gordon would be a fine add at 2B since he's an actual capable everyday 2B but let's stop the idea of him being a real leadoff option. Being fast does not make you a viable option for receiving the most at bats of any player on the team. His career .289/.327/.362 line and 91 wRC+ is entirely unspectacular, especially for a leadoff man. 

[totdprods]

4 minutes ago, Brent Maguire said:

Dee Gordon would be a fine add at 2B since he's an actual capable everyday 2B but let's stop the idea of him being a real leadoff option. Being fast does not make you a viable option for receiving the most at bats of any player on the team. His career .289/.327/.362 line and 91 wRC+ is entirely unspectacular, especially for a leadoff man. 

Is he perfect? No, but he's better than what other options we currently have under contract for '18. 542 of his 585 games have seen him hitting lead-off. 

Ideally, the Angels do acquire another lead-off type and push him to a different spot, or develop one and move him down as his contract goes on, but he'd work in that spot for now.

[stanick88]

I also think trading for Gordon would be a good move. He would be a massive upgrade. Having coward full time at 2B doesn't inspire anything more than below average to average at best. If we can get Gordon for not much, that would fill a position of need with solid production and we could then focus our remaining resources on other positions. However, if we get a few impact bats and/or pitcher, (i.e. At 1b and left field, or a strong Starting pitcher) we may be able to give Cowart a chance at his natural position of 3B and give him his best Chance to succeed. 

[Brent Maguire]

1 minute ago, totdprods said:

Is he perfect? No, but he's better than what other options we currently have under contract for '18. 542 of his 585 games have seen him hitting lead-off. 

Ideally, the Angels do acquire another lead-off type and push him to a different spot, or develop one and move him down as his contract goes on, but he'd work in that spot for now.

He's a fine add for the team in general but it'll be pretty telling if he's the everyday leadoff guy. The stolen bases are not enough to overcome the very low OBP and lack of power. I'd rather see Simmons get a shot at leading off than thrust Gordon into that role. 

[Homebrewer]

59 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

I'm willing to consider acquiring Gordon, bringing up Cowart to play 3B everyday, and move Escobar to 1B.    Only issue is, do they want to have Escobar learn a new position in the midst of a maybe WC contention season?    Might be food for thought for 2018? 

Gordon, regardless, can still be acquired though without making the other moves. 

It's not a contention season. Once everyone, including the FO agrees with that, something might actually get done, but until then it's just a mass circle-jerking fantasy that wastes everyone's time.

[totdprods]

Just now, Brent Maguire said:

He's a fine add for the team in general but it'll be pretty telling if he's the everyday leadoff guy. The stolen bases are not enough to overcome the very low OBP and lack of power. I'd rather see Simmons get a shot at leading off than thrust Gordon into that role. 

I'd be fine with Simmons getting a shot - ideally, he becomes that type of player - but I don't want a repeat of the Aybar Lead-off Experiment where if it doesn't work out, we are SOL when it comes to alternatives. Small sample size, but Simmons hasn't done well at lead-off in his career, and I'd rather they not try to alter his current offensive development by trying to make him be something he isn't. That's not to say he can't be that, I just don't want them to force anything. 

Dee gives them temporary lead-off depth. If they wind up re-upping Maybin or Escobar, or signing Cain, eve better. 

I just want them to keep stacking the deck.
 

[Homebrewer]

And I'll go on record to join those that don't think Gordon is the solution

[Dtwncbad]

I'll take Jedd Gyorko.

[Dick B Back]

1 hour ago, Angels#1Fan said:

Small rant here..

I don't give a rats ass what his WAR is, in fact I'm growing a little tired of players being defined by this all the time like it's the gospel.

WAR is just one stat it's not been sent to earth from the Gods as the end all of be all.

Having said that, Gordon would be a huge upgrade at second compared to what we've had recently and I don't think the price is too high. Any signing has risks..I don't care who it is.

[/rant]

Even HK on the disabled list is an upgrade at second compared to what we've had recently.

[Dtwncbad]

Is Rob Wilfong available?  Just trying to get better.

[fanfromday1]

I wonder if Arty would even sign off on acquiring Gordon after what he just went through with Hamilton. Kind of the "Fool me once, shame on me. For me twice, shame on you," type of mentality.

[floplag]

I think Gordon is exactly what we need in terms of time controlled.  Are there potential issues, of course, thats always the case no matter who it is.
Hes not overpaid considering, he buys us a few years to develop the kids, and while he isnt the perfect leadoff man, who is anymore?  
Putting him and maybe Maybin/Young in front of Trout/Pujols/Calhoun isnt something that would suck.  
His OBP is literally 100 pts higher than Espinoza's was this season at 337. This puts him 11th among 2B and ahead of guys like Cano, Kinsler and Dozier and tied with BPhillips.  No, it isnt awesome, but its a huge upgrsade for us. 
I like the idea personally, but i dont think we have what it will take to get done so it really wont matter. 
If nothing else plug in Cowart and see what happens.   We need to know once and for all

[ettin]

Eppler will prioritize defense at 2B first and foremost IMO. Additionally someone who can hit at or near the top of the order would be an important secondary trait.

So Dee Gordon does fit that mold a bit but definitely is far from perfect. However I think we will only acquire him if we obtain a 2nd piece from the Marlins such as Christian Yelich, Justin Bour, Marcel Ozuna, or even, more remotely, Giancarlo Stanton. Miami wants to dump salary so this may be a cost and value opportunity for the Angels. It is also possible that the Angels could put the left-handed hitting Gordon in a platoon with Cowart but that seems like a waste of money.

Beyond that the Angels previously inquired on Cesar Hernandez (per Jeff Fletcher), Kolten Wong, and Greg Garcia. I have recommended Eugenio Suarez who can play SS, 2B, or 3B (he currently is excelling in the latter position) and Jonathan Villar. Ozhaino Albies was recently offered as the centerpiece for a Quintana trade per rumors so he may be available. Albies would be tough and so would Brendan Rodgers (highly unlikely), same with Jorge Mateo (nearly non-existent). The Dodgers might consider trading Willie Calhoun as they can put Chris Taylor there next season but many scouts don't think he will stay at 2B long.

Devon Travis is coming back from injury and the Blue Jays might be selling? He is really good when he's healthy (which isn't often lately). Reds prospect Shed Long is an option maybe. Alex Blandino too.

In the off-season there could be more opportunities such as signing Zack Cozart for instance. There are plenty of options it's all about acquisition price. I'm guessing Cesar Hernandez at this point but it is wide open on who it will be.

[DMVol]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

Is he perfect? No, but he's better than what other options we currently have under contract for '18. 542 of his 585 games have seen him hitting lead-off.....

^^^This^^^...We aren't going to trade for a productive, controllable 2bman unless you want an already thin farm to be even thinner.....Otherwise, our options have been dumpster diving (Franklin), taking a flyer on a guy with a serious hole in his skill set (Espinosa, in his case his offense) or take on some money and hope for the best with guys who have, at least at times, been pretty productive all around players (Maybin, Gordon).....Maybin hasn't been a home run, looks more like his norms than last year or most of 2016 with the Braves....was it worth taking on a pretty big one year contract, given our circumstances?  I think so....difference is Gordon's contract would be a bigger bite to chew on....

[totdprods]

And again, Dee isn't perfect, but he gives us more than enough cushion. He comes on a fixed contract, fills the lead-off role in a minimum, and gives off leverage on offseason negotiations on Maybin, Escobar, Cain, anyone else who could be a lead-off hitter. We get roster/playoff flexibility having someone with his speed, contact, and batting order versatility on board. 

[Angel Oracle]

53 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I'll take Jedd Gyorko.

Will take a handful in trade.   Still has 2 years/$23 million or 3 years/$35 million after this season.   That reasonable of a contract for an emerging hitter the past two seasons (after escaping the Padres) = a lot of interest.   Plus the Cards are pretty much a perennial post-season team.

[Angel Oracle]

24 minutes ago, DMVol said:

^^^This^^^...We aren't going to trade for a productive, controllable 2bman unless you want an already thin farm to be even thinner.....Otherwise, our options have been dumpster diving (Franklin), taking a flyer on a guy with a serious hole in his skill set (Espinosa, in his case his offense) or take on some money and hope for the best with guys who have, at least at times, been pretty productive all around players (Maybin, Gordon).....Maybin hasn't been a home run, looks more like his norms than last year or most of 2016 with the Braves....was it worth taking on a pretty big one year contract, given our circumstances?  I think so....difference is Gordon's contract would be a bigger bite to chew on....

Gordon >>>>> dumpster diving.

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Homebrewer said:

It's not a contention season. Once everyone, including the FO agrees with that, something might actually get done, but until then it's just a mass circle-jerking fantasy that wastes everyone's time.

That's why I said "maybe" WC contention, although even the maybe is decreasing by the week.

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

If I was calling the shots he would be playing 3rd every day, especially with this season playing out like it is.  I would rather have Cowart at 3rd and Escobar at 1st over Cron at 1st.  All that being said Escobar has been playing a pretty good third lately.  

If we are looking to get Cowart ABs so that we can see what he's capable of then we should be doing the same with Cron. While our best lineup has Escobar in it, he's still most likely gone at the end of the year. If we want to see Cowart in the lineup then they should just bite the bullet and let him play second. Sure he's got some growing to do over there but a half season would probably do him wonders. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I hope it's not Gordon, he's got some warts -- he's fast but doesn't get on base at the sort of clip you'd like to see from a leadoff type -- I don't see him as a cornerstone type player by any stretch and if his offense fails to translate from NL to AL (his career OBP of .305 in interleague is troubling), then they have saddled themselves with another long term contract.   I guess it comes down to the costs involved.  But speed doesn't age well historically and Gordon's entire game is about speed.  Among the pending FA's, Neil Walker and Howie Kendrick might make decent stopgaps -- but Howie's been struggling with injuries all season so -- red flag....

Ultimately, I want to see Cowart be given regular at bats for a few months.   It seems they know what he is and don't see a future but I'd hope before they committed to anyone Gordon, Walker, etc etc -- that they at least take every possible look at what they have.

Would you take Gordon if the only cost was paying his contract?

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, AngelsLakersFan said:

Would you take Gordon if the only cost was paying his contract?

That's not likely a possibility is it?   I'm not a fan of his for the same reasons I was not a fan of Revere -- their entire games are driven by batting average.   He's not awful, just not the type of player I typically like and neither one of them belongs anywhere near the top of the order which is where I think most people here believe he fits.

I'd sooner kick the tires on a guy like Walker than commit to Gordon's contract.  

[nando714]

Sign 1 of Brandon phillips or Neil Walker. They will probably require a 2 year deal

Flecther has the back up next season. 

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

That's not likely a possibility is it?   I'm not a fan of his for the same reasons I was not a fan of Revere -- their entire games are driven by batting average.   He's not awful, just not the type of player I typically like and neither one of them belongs anywhere near the top of the order which is where I think most people here believe he fits.

I'd sooner kick the tires on a guy like Walker than commit to Gordon's contract.  

I don't know. The Marlins are historically cheap, and his value related to his contract is in question here in this thread, so I wouldn't put it past them.

I think Gordon is a pass for all the reasons you've listed, but assuming it takes a marginal prospect at best I think he makes a lot of sense. By 'sense' Im mostly referring to market conditions. There are limited options, Walker might be a better option but what is he going to cost? After those two, who else are we really looking at as available? We need someone.

[DMVol]

8 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

....I'd sooner kick the tires on a guy like Walker than commit to Gordon's contract....

As a) a FA in the offseason or b), now, as a rental, with no extension or c) now, with an extension of some kind worked out...?

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't know. The Marlins are historically cheap, and his value related to his contract is in question here in this thread, so I wouldn't put it past them.

I think Gordon is a pass for all the reasons you've listed, but assuming it takes a marginal prospect at best I think he makes a lot of sense. By 'sense' Im mostly referring to market conditions. There are limited options, Walker might be a better option but what is he going to cost? After those two, who else are we really looking at as available? We need someone.

Kendrick will be available -- Kinsler may be if the Tigers don't bite on the option year..   Brandon Phillips is a FA I believe -- he turns 100 but still.   Pretty much every available guy has some sort of negative ... Im all for going after the guy with the fewest negatives.