Second Base

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, DMVol said:

As a) a FA in the offseason or b), now, as a rental, with no extension or c) now, with an extension of some kind worked out...?

FA.  

I want no part of trading for Gordon or anyone now, I'd much prefer to see what Cowart can do given everyday at bats than trade for a 2B.   Keep in mind, I've said since before the season started that I saw this as a throwaway season.  I'm hoping they are able to trade off players - I would welcome a late season swoon and another top 10 draft pick but I doubt that actually happens, particularly if all the injured pitchers come back.  Mostly, I want them working on a plan for 2018 and beyond -- they will finally have some financial flexibility this winter, I'd like to see what Eppler does with it assuming Arte hasn't turned prick and was just genuinely toeing the luxury tax. 

[Troll Daddy]

7 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Kendrick will be available -- Kinsler may be if the Tigers don't bite on the option year..   Brandon Phillips is a FA I believe -- he turns 100 but still.   Pretty much every available guy has some sort of negative ... Im all for going after the guy with the fewest negatives.

Howie is Murphy lite and affordable 

[Angel Oracle]

8 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Kendrick will be available -- Kinsler may be if the Tigers don't bite on the option year..   Brandon Phillips is a FA I believe -- he turns 100 but still.   Pretty much every available guy has some sort of negative ... Im all for going after the guy with the fewest negatives.

Phillips has had a bit of a resurgence in 2017 (.780 OPS), but just turned 36.   At most, I would offer one year plus a team option year.

Walker is 5 years younger and has been solid offensively throughout his MLB career, but does have some durability issues.     

[totdprods]

3 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

That's not likely a possibility is it?   I'm not a fan of his for the same reasons I was not a fan of Revere -- their entire games are driven by batting average.   He's not awful, just not the type of player I typically like and neither one of them belongs anywhere near the top of the order which is where I think most people here believe he fits.

I'd sooner kick the tires on a guy like Walker than commit to Gordon's contract.  

I think he'd be fine at the top of the order for now. Yeah, there's plenty of risk he goes the Revere/Figgins/Pierre route and falls off the table in a couple years. Sucks, but his contract isn't so exorbitant that he couldn't flip to a bench/PR/DFA role. We've eaten far more money. A perfect world wouldn't have that happen, but it's a reality of every major league team. He wouldn't cause us much harm if that extreme negative outcome comes. He'd band-aid for a year or two nicely, and potentially cheaply. 

We don't have anyone on our team with his profile or skill set. It's not the best/ideal/perfect skill set, but it isn't like we have a team of Dee Gordons. Balance is good, and someone fast as hell and slappy could fit nicely in the context of the offensive balance depending who else we get.

[AngelsLakersFan]

7 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

FA.  

I want no part of trading for Gordon or anyone now, I'd much prefer to see what Cowart can do given everyday at bats than trade for a 2B.   Keep in mind, I've said since before the season started that I saw this as a throwaway season.  I'm hoping they are able to trade off players - I would welcome a late season swoon and another top 10 draft pick but I doubt that actually happens, particularly if all the injured pitchers come back.  Mostly, I want them working on a plan for 2018 and beyond -- they will finally have some financial flexibility this winter, I'd like to see what Eppler does with it assuming Arte hasn't turned prick and was just genuinely toeing the luxury tax. 

I guess this sort of puts you in the Espinosa range for what you'd like them to do. I know that has negative connotations now and I don't mean it to sound that way, but you are looking for a low cost / risk option. That is probably smart. If the right guy isn't available, don't spend a lot of resources on someone else.

The downside here is that we are looking at another stop gap solution with a good chance of blowing up on us - but only for one year.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, HALOS23 said:

I'd prefer Gordon. Lead off guy with track record. Stolen bases. Another guy to get in front of Trout. While not "the" piece, he is A piece.

Plenty of guys here could be labeled as a piece of something.

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 hours ago, eligrba said:

Sad to say but Ian Kinsler is a perfect match.....

Kinsler would be the first old vet we brought over who would  be good...and we'd all still hate him.

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, totdprods said:

I think he'd be fine at the top of the order for now. Yeah, there's plenty of risk he goes the Revere/Figgins/Pierre route and falls off the table in a couple years. Sucks, but his contract isn't so exorbitant that he couldn't flip to a bench/PR/DFA role. We've eaten far more money. A perfect world wouldn't have that happen, but it's a reality of every major league team. He wouldn't cause us much harm if that extreme negative outcome comes. He'd band-aid for a year or two nicely, and potentially cheaply. 

We don't have anyone on our team with his profile or skill set. It's not the best/ideal/perfect skill set, but it isn't like we have a team of Dee Gordons. Balance is good, and someone fast as hell and slappy could fit nicely in the context of the offensive balance depending who else we get.

I can't get on board with the whole -- "we have made dumber decisions in the past so we can make another one and be okay" line of thinking -- I know that's not exactly what you're saying but, making a deal thinking you might have to make another deal later to correct it isn't my thing.   There are likely cheaper band-aids available in FA, in fact, I'd rather pay more on a one year deal than hope Gordon's game will carry over to the AL and AL West.  Would people be cool with a .275/.315/.375 batting line at the top of the order?  Because that's what Aybar was as an Angel.  Gordon BTW is sporting a career .273/.306/.373 batting line over 398 PAs in inter-league...  

So if those inter-league numbers were to carry over this team would have committed an average of 13 mil for Erick Aybar offense at the TOP of the order...   

[Inside Pitch]

16 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I guess this sort of puts you in the Espinosa range for what you'd like them to do. I know that has negative connotations now and I don't mean it to sound that way, but you are looking for a low cost / risk option. That is probably smart. If the right guy isn't available, don't spend a lot of resources on someone else.

The downside here is that we are looking at another stop gap solution with a good chance of blowing up on us - but only for one year.  

I don't view Kendrick, Kinsler or Walker as being equal to Espinosa.     If they trade for Gordon then they traded for Gordon -- I won't rant and rave about it but I don't view him as anything other than a "meh".    I just don't expect a guy who's put up a 82 OPS+ post PED to switch leagues and not see a drop off.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Bring aybar back to play 2B

[zenmaster]

Well whomever we bring over will most likely be old and well past their prime or a once stud prospect who didn't work out. 

[totdprods]

4 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I can't get on board with the whole -- "we have made dumber decisions in the past so we can make another one and be okay" line of thinking -- I know that's not exactly what you're saying but, making a deal thinking you might have to make another deal later to correct it isn't my thing.   There are likely cheaper band-aids available in FA, in fact, I'd rather pay more on a one year deal than hope Gordon's game will carry over to the AL and AL West.  Would people be cool with a .275/.315/.375 batting line at the top of the order?  Because that's what Aybar was as an Angel.  Gordon BTW is sporting a career .273/.306/.373 batting line over 398 PAs in inter-league...  

So if those inter-league numbers were to carry over this team would have committed an average of 13 mil for Erick Aybar offense at the TOP of the order...   

In a vacuum, I can't disagree with any of that. But to me it's about more than that. As it stands right now, Andrelton Simmons is our penciled in lead-off hitter for 2018. His slash line as a lead-off hitter? In 351 PAs: .223/.266/.336/.602, and given that's he's starting to turn into an offensive threat at a crucial time in his career, I'd rather not mess with him or what he's doing at the plate right now. 

I totally get that Gordon might not solve lead-off for us, but without him, it's putting us in a position where we really need to re-sign someone like Maybin or Escobar to fill that role (and we're all aware of their pros and cons by now) or pay a hefty contract for Cain, or buy another cheap vet like Jon Jay or Melky Cabrera. I don't think any of those outcomes are any less risky than Dee Gordon. To me, his value isn't tied exclusively to him hitting lead-off, it's to him giving us lineup flexibility and addressing three needs (2B, speed/SB, potential lead-off) for a relatively cheap cost. 

Sure - there are probably better 2B options via FA on one-year deals, but those savings could wind up being negated by whomever we have to get for leadoff, of which there are very few options, and those that exist will either be expensive or just as risky. We don't have to tie our lead-off fate to signing one of those guys now, or hoping Simmons transitions perfectly to that role.

Ideally, to me, we would get someone like Dee (Josh Harrison and Cesar Hernandez also have my eye) and still go after a lead-off hitter, likely LF. If we strike out, at least we have a couple fallback options in-house with Gordon and Simmons.

[AngelsLakersFan]

49 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I don't view Kendrick, Kinsler or Walker as being equal to Espinosa.     If they trade for Gordon then they traded for Gordon -- I won't rant and rave about it but I don't view him as anything other than a "meh".    I just don't expect a guy who's put up a 82 OPS+ post PED to switch leagues and not see a drop off.

Ya, you're right. That said Kendrick is far from a sure thing (2 WAR over his last year and a half). Kinsler is gona cost you prospects... no way they decline his option (only costs them $5m). Despite his low BABIP this season he still is near 2 war after averaging 5 over the last two. Neil Walker is gona cost a lot more money than Gordon... (4/$75, maybe 5/$80) and he's older.

If those are your 4 options I bet they go with Howie. He'll come back to the Angels on a super cheap deal. I don't think they spend the money for Walker and Kinsler will be an expensive one year rental which I think goes against the current organizational philosophy.

[Angel Oracle]

4 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Figgins unlike Gordon knew how to milk walks and tended to stay healthy without the use of PED -- his highest salary as an Angel was 5.5 mil too.    There are a lot of warts that people are glossing over with Gordon, but whatever...  Now that the conversation is turning into stats are bad they don't support my opinions I've lost all interest in the discussion.  

Name recognition ... that's what really matters.

It's not about what's ideal though.   It's about what will work best for this lineup going forward.   Gordon would not be a long term option, but for 3 years (not exercising 4th year team option) anyway at $40 million, he's not a terrible option.   If there is a better fit for 2B and the lineup that does not require significant prospects going back in trade, I'm all for hearing it.    As I have said earlier today, Phillips and Walker would be fine as short term options.   But who is the best LONG term option?   They've already done stop gaps these past two years at 2B.   How much longer can they continue to do so?

[NorCal Halo]

For me, Cowart>Wong>Gordon>Aybar>Kinsler.  To me, Kinsler would be like having A.J. Pierzynski on the team.  And I still don't like rooting for Escobar!

[mrwicked]

3 hours ago, zenmaster said:

Well whomever we bring over will most likely be old and well past their prime or a once stud prospect who didn't work out. 

stop giving away the secret sauce man, other MLB GMs might be reading this.

#trusttheprocess

[Dtwncbad]

I thought the thread was about boobies.

[DMVol]

New 2b name, we could have a reunion....Braves have no place for him:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/07/braves-activate-sean-rodriguez.html

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

Howie is a FA in October.

last year .255/.326

This year so far (126 AB) .349/.403/.476/.879, 133 OPS+

[totdprods]

23 minutes ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Howie is a FA in October.

last year .255/.326

This year so far (126 AB) .349/.403/.476/.879, 133 OPS+

I'd be fine with Howie in the role that was bandied about for Utley in recent offseasons. Bench bat who could fill in full-time at a few positions if needed. Anything more than that is pushing it a bit.  Him and Valbuena (should) pair up nicely in reserve roles and be steady vets who could be dealt or dumped midseason without hurting too bad.

[ScottT]

So glad they got rid of Espinosa so Pennington and Franklin could split time at 2b. Shrewd move. 

[DMVol]

Fletcher says we still need to watch Cesar Hernandez from Phils:

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeffFletcherOCR/status/887126380403490816

[totdprods]

Just now, DMVol said:

Fletcher says watch Hernandez from Phils:

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeffFletcherOCR/status/887126380403490816

Still makes the most sense. He'll get pushed out in Philly soon enough, checks all of the boxes for what we want in a 2B, and with Klentak's knowledge of our farm, him and Eppler should be able to hammer out a fair deal.

None of the FA 2B appeal to me, and I don't think Fletcher will be quite ready to step in Opening Day 2018. I don't think Cowart will ever be a legitimate everyday 2B in the org's eyes, or it would have happened by now.

[Tank]

9 hours ago, Stradling said:

I am pretty sure we all know that Franklin and Pennington aren't our long term 2nd basemen.  So who in your mind do you think will be our guy going into next season?  

it probably shouldn't be me. i had a terrible record of just getting to second base in high school...

[ettin]

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I thought the thread was about boobies.

No those are Glen's threads.