Second Base

[Stradling]

I am pretty sure we all know that Franklin and Pennington aren't our long term 2nd basemen.  So who in your mind do you think will be our guy going into next season?  Do you think they will trade for one between now and the trade deadline, or sign a free agent?  I guess technically they could do both.  I just have a hunch the Angels will make a move for Dee Gordon.  It might be centered around a guy like Cowart and the Angels taking on more of the contract if not all of it.  It would be acquiring a guy in his prime that should be pretty good for the next few years while not giving up too much.  It would also mean that you have one position covered, gives you another top of the order hitter, which leaves you options for left field next year, not needing that person be a lead off hitter.  I really like Cowart, but I would at least understand a trade like this.

[mtangelsfan]

I don't understand why this organization can't give Cowart a real shot.  Sometimes it just seems like some guys are out of favor.  

and I have no idea who the 2B is going to be next season.  Probably someone I have never heard of.

[HALOS23]

I'd prefer Gordon. Lead off guy with track record. Stolen bases. Another guy to get in front of Trout. While not "the" piece, he is A piece.

[Stradling]

If I was calling the shots he would be playing 3rd every day, especially with this season playing out like it is.  I would rather have Cowart at 3rd and Escobar at 1st over Cron at 1st.  All that being said Escobar has been playing a pretty good third lately.  

[Chuck]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

If I was calling the shots he would be playing 3rd every day, especially with this season playing out like it is.  I would rather have Cowart at 3rd and Escobar at 1st over Cron at 1st.  All that being said Escobar has been playing a pretty good third lately.  

Great idea, Strad. 

The only weakness really in Escobar's defense is his throws across the diamond. I think he would be a great stop gap 1B should we continue to seek out a WC spot. 

[mulwin444]

Dee Gordon's had one good season before he was busted for PEDs and his .327 lifetime OBP is nothing special for a lead-off hitter.  I'd rather they not move to acquire him as I think it will be an overpay and his output with us will be "meh".  He's essentially the Juan Pierre of second basemen 

[jsnpritchett]

Please, please, don't let it be Dee Gordon, unless we're somehow also getting back someone like Ozuna or Yelich (not Bour--sorry, Chuck! ).  People keep talking about how good Gordon's defense is, but both BBR and Fangraphs have him as average at best.  And he seems like the type of offensive player who would drive fans crazy.  His entire value is in his BA and steals (and the speed will probably start going away).  He doesn't walk and strikes out more than a guy like him should.  More than half of his career WAR comes from the fluky 2015 year when he was on PEDs.  

[Stradling]

I would be fine acquiring a guy like Gordon because it won't cost much on the prospect front and it only costs money.  If we want someone younger and with more upside it will cost way more in prospects.  

[Inside Pitch]

24 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I am pretty sure we all know that Franklin and Pennington aren't our long term 2nd basemen.  So who in your mind do you think will be our guy going into next season?  Do you think they will trade for one between now and the trade deadline, or sign a free agent?  I guess technically they could do both.  I just have a hunch the Angels will make a move for Dee Gordon.  It might be centered around a guy like Cowart and the Angels taking on more of the contract if not all of it.  It would be acquiring a guy in his prime that should be pretty good for the next few years while not giving up too much.  It would also mean that you have one position covered, gives you another top of the order hitter, which leaves you options for left field next year, not needing that person be a lead off hitter.  I really like Cowart, but I would at least understand a trade like this.

I hope it's not Gordon, he's got some warts -- he's fast but doesn't get on base at the sort of clip you'd like to see from a leadoff type -- I don't see him as a cornerstone type player by any stretch and if his offense fails to translate from NL to AL (his career OBP of .305 in interleague is troubling), then they have saddled themselves with another long term contract.   I guess it comes down to the costs involved.  But speed doesn't age well historically and Gordon's entire game is about speed.  Among the pending FA's, Neil Walker and Howie Kendrick might make decent stopgaps -- but Howie's been struggling with injuries all season so -- red flag....

Ultimately, I want to see Cowart be given regular at bats for a few months.   It seems they know what he is and don't see a future but I'd hope before they committed to anyone Gordon, Walker, etc etc -- that they at least take every possible look at what they have.

[jsnpritchett]

4 minutes ago, hangin n wangin said:

And the money is not bad at all, relative to his production.

It kinda is.

[Angel Oracle]

I'm willing to consider acquiring Gordon, bringing up Cowart to play 3B everyday, and move Escobar to 1B.    Only issue is, do they want to have Escobar learn a new position in the midst of a maybe WC contention season?    Might be food for thought for 2018? 

Gordon, regardless, can still be acquired though without making the other moves. 

[Inside Pitch]

6 minutes ago, hangin n wangin said:

And the money is not bad at all, relative to his production.

It's borderline -- you're talking about 4 years and 50 mil after this season.   If his offense fails to translate from NL to AL it's got some stink to it.   Not a crushing contract but, one that would linger around til 2021.

[jsnpritchett]

Just now, Angel Oracle said:

I'm willing to consider acquiring Gordon, bringing up Cowart to play 3B everyday, and move Escobar to 1B.    Only issue is, do they want to have Escobar learn a new position in the midst of a maybe WC contention season?    Might be food for thought for 2018? 

If that's our starting IF in 2018, I'll bet you $100 right now that we won't be above .500 for the year.

[Angel Oracle]

Unfortunately, there are no other 2B solutions either here or around MLB besides Gordon, that are obtainable with what is on the farm.   Except for signing Neil Walker as a FA?

[Blarg]

Dee Gordon doesn't seem to be the direction Eppler is pointing the franchise. I'm guessing next year's second baseman either comes from within or a trade for someone no one has their sights on.

I would prefer Cowart got his shot at third base and not re-signing Escobar. Yunell is still maintaining his OPS+ at the same level as last season but I don't know if any of you have noticed how slow he runs these days. His career is definitely winding down and I'd rather not gamble on taking on that one last year too many. 

[eligrba]

Sad to say but Ian Kinsler is a perfect match.....

[OregonLAA]

Gordon and Yelich for Cowart and Perez and a couple nice prospects probably isn't doable but I'd love it

[totdprods]

Yolmer Sanchez from the White Sox would be an interesting target. I could see a fringey guy like Greg Garcia or Rob Refsnyder being a possible return for Hernandez or Petit. Ketel Marte could be a target too, if the D'Backs wind up buyers.

[jsnpritchett]

2 minutes ago, hangin n wangin said:

2021 is a team option though, so it's 37 million through 2020 and a 1 million dollar buyout if you don't want to keep him. At 13 million AAV through 2020, if he produces a 3-4 WAR, which he has proven he is definitely capable of, that is definitely worth the money and it's not a contract that will kill you. Plus, you're getting his prime years. The guy is not slowing down, as he has 32 stolen bases this year. His contract would end about the time he would start slowing down stolen bases wise. I'm not strongly advocating getting Dee or anything, but it would be nice to have a second baseman that isn't a complete idiot.

The only year he's done that is the year in which he was using PEDs.  Even this year, he's not on pace for 3 WAR.

[jsnpritchett]

Just now, hangin n wangin said:

He had a 3.3 fWAR with the Dodgers and is pretty much on pace for a 3 WAR this year. I'm not going to complain if he ends up 0.2 WAR short of the 3 mark. Even if he averaged a 2-3 WAR in 3 seasons here, that would be worth his 12 million AAV through 2020.

We'll just disagree on this one, then.  I think they need to spend their money more wisely than on him.

[Inside Pitch]

15 minutes ago, hangin n wangin said:

2021 is a team option though, so it's 37 million through 2020 and a 1 million dollar buyout if you don't want to keep him. At 13 million a year, if he produces a 3-4 WAR, which he has proven he is definitely capable of, that is definitely worth the money and it's not a contract that will kill you. Plus, you're getting his prime years. The guy is not slowing down, as he has 32 stolen bases this year. His contract would end about the time he would start slowing down stolen bases wise. I'm not strongly advocating getting Dee or anything, but it would be nice to have a second baseman that isn't a complete idiot.

First, I get you're not making a hard argument for him, so, my opposite point of view is just for the sake of discussion, devil's advocate type of thing.   You're right the final year is an option, but it's an option that's automatic based on plate appeances...   He's far from a lock to get them given his tendency to break down but its just 600 PAs so, you get my point.  

As far as what he's proven capable of..  he's put up a bWAR over 2.4 once in his career -- and then promptly got popped for PEDs   To date he's managed 8.8 bWAR through his age 29 season.   Seems like a stretch to expect him to be able to put together 9-12 bWAR from age 30-32, particularly given the aging profiles of speed first guys and considering he would be moving from the NL to the AL.  Not impossible -- just unlikely if we base it on his history.

I agree it's not a crushing contract, I just don't see a legit leadoff hitter there, and I worry about guys who's entire game is based on their wheels.  Particularly guys who have a pretty sketch injury history and a PED suspension.

Lastly, I agree it would be nice to have even a league average 2B again.

[Angels#1Fan]

Small rant here..

I don't give a rats ass what his WAR is, in fact I'm growing a little tired of players being defined by this all the time like it's the gospel.

WAR is just one stat it's not been sent to earth from the Gods as the end all of be all.

Having said that, Gordon would be a huge upgrade at second compared to what we've had recently and I don't think the price is too high. Any signing has risks..I don't care who it is.

[/rant]

[totdprods]

I like Dee because he'd bring a lot of speed to the team, which we've seen be a big asset to the offense this year. He can hit lead-off, hits left-handed, makes contact, fills a position of need. He doesn't answer all of our prayers but he checks a lot of boxes off our offseason shopping list in advance, and perhaps for a relatively cheap cost. 

[Angel Oracle]

17 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

First, I get you're not making a hard argument for him, so, my opposite point of view is just for the sake of discussion, devil's advocate type of thing.   You're right the final year is an option, but it's an option that's automatic based on plate appeances...   He's far from a lock to get them given his tendency to break down but its just 600 PAs so, you get my point.  

As far as what he's proven capable of..  he's put up a bWAR over 2.4 once in his career -- and then promptly got popped for PEDs   To date he's managed 8.8 bWAR through his age 29 season.   Seems like a stretch to expect him to be able to put together 9-12 bWAR from age 30-32, particularly given the aging profiles of speed first guys and considering he would be moving from the NL to the AL.  Not impossible -- just unlikely if we base it on his history.

I agree it's not a crushing contract, I just don't see a legit leadoff hitter there, and I worry about guys who's entire game is based on their wheels.  Particularly guys who have a pretty sketch injury history and a PED suspension.

Lastly, I agree it would be nice to have even a league average 2B again.

Seeing that he's 29, to me it's not as big of a concern.    Figgins' decline truly started at age 32.    At most (if exercising 2021 team option), Gordon would be here through his age 33 season. 

[Inside Pitch]

12 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Seeing that he's 29, to me it's not as big of a concern.    Figgins' decline truly started at age 32.    At most (if exercising 2021 team option), Gordon would be here through his age 33 season. 

Figgins unlike Gordon knew how to milk walks and tended to stay healthy without the use of PED -- his highest salary as an Angel was 5.5 mil too.    There are a lot of warts that people are glossing over with Gordon, but whatever...  Now that the conversation is turning into stats are bad they don't support my opinions I've lost all interest in the discussion.  

Name recognition ... that's what really matters.