Taking on an overpriced player?

[ettin]

6 hours ago, CanadianHalo said:

Yesterday on the Fox pregame show Rosenthal said the Cubs were possibly open to the idea of trading away one of their young position players. 

I'd be willing to trade anyone not named Adell in our farm system or anyone from our bullpen to get Javier Baez. 

Baez is only 24 and could set up shop at 2B for us for a long time. Baez and Simmons would make for a hell of a duo up the middle. 

As for overpriced players... I'd take on Cespedes and Upton (although Upton will for sure opt out so trading anything away for him would be dumb). The only way I'm trading for Stanton is if the Marlins took Pujols but with Pujols now being a full time DH that obviously doesn't work.

Before you go to nuts on Baez read this article and consider the implications of what he could look like if we acquired him (maybe he doesn't but I'm just pointing out one possible future): http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/another-way-to-see-the-angels-new-addition/

[Inside Pitch]

6 minutes ago, ettin said:

Before you go to nuts on Baez read this article and consider the implications of what he could look like if we acquired him (maybe he doesn't but I'm just pointing out one possible future): http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/another-way-to-see-the-angels-new-addition/

Whoever wrote that article was clearly rattled...

[UndertheHalo]

Stanton ? Are we playing video game GM again ?

[CanadianHalo]

21 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Whoever wrote that article was clearly rattled...

Gee for someone who supposedly doesn't let others get to him sure can't seem to let it go... You're pretty easy to see through. 

As for the article, I get that Baez has some concerning issues however Espinosa is also now hitting .162 so...? Article said we should be "pretty happy", is anyone here happy with Espinosa now? Didn't think so. 

Espinosa's best hitting average ever was .247. Espinosa hasn't even come close to sniffing what Baez has achieved at a younger age. To sit here and throw Espinosa in the same sentence is insulting to Baez, he's a lot better than that and he's only 24. 

 

 

 

[Inside Pitch]

32 minutes ago, CanadianHalo said:

Gee for someone who supposedly doesn't let others get to him sure can't seem to let it go... You're pretty easy to see through. 

Yes, you got me -- I have a hard time masking my disdain for stupidity...

32 minutes ago, CanadianHalo said:

Espinosa's best hitting average ever was .247. Espinosa hasn't even come close to sniffing what Baez has achieved at a younger age. To sit here and throw Espinosa in the same sentence is insulting to Baez, he's a lot better than that and he's only 24.

Help me out -- is a OPS+ of 102 at age 24 (same age as Baez right now), better or worse than an OPS+ of 94?  Also, the 57 walks Espinosa put up that year are 10 more than Baez has managed in his entire career.

But please, go on with this fascinating comparison of batting averages.

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

6 hours ago, eligrba said:

Didn't the Dodgers also receive some prospects along with those contracts?  I thought the Dodgers essentially rebuilt their farm system using their ability to take on bad contracts by charging the other teams valuable prospects.  The Dodgers received more than simply bad contracts from those teams.

Yes. Smart as hell on their end.

I see most on here are against this idea. Were all on the same page of building from within. Which we should be.

What i think some are missing is the tradeoff of taking someones bad contract is likely not losing real prospects to obtain them, and not losing draft picks as you would signing a FA.

The team has far more money than a farm....its not at all a bad idea. The only problem is the current crop of options isnt the greatest.

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Or we could ultimately dream.

Gordon, Maybin, Trout, Stanton

Of course, would Gordon and Stanton empty the rebuilding farm?

Money wise, if Pujols wasn't making $114 million over the next 4 seasons, that Stanton money could easily be added.

I would think stanton wouldnt take too much in terms of prospects if a team took all the money. I would seriously doubt miami wants to trade him though.

We tried to trade for him a few years back and got laughed at by the marlins.

[WeatherWonk]

19 hours ago, Blarg said:

Absolutely not. It is counter productive to rebuilding a team with the intent of keeping Trout. The course of action right now isn't  buying someone else's mistake from them. 

Develop quality mlb players and build that roster around them before trying to use free agency or barter for over priced talent. 

The Angels are not at that point one player is moving the needle. They need at least five players to fill holes before that one impact player makes any difference. 

The Angels cant fill five holes from within, within the timeframe of Trout's existing contract . Our only hope is that some of these young, injured pitchers come around.

BTW, Calhoun, Simmons and Trout all become free agents after 2020. We could have more holes than a target practice dummy in 2021.

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

57 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Yes. Smart as hell on their end.

I see most on here are against this idea. Were all on the same page of building from within. Which we should be.

What i think some are missing is the tradeoff of taking someones bad contract is likely not losing real prospects to obtain them, and not losing draft picks as you would signing a FA.

The team has far more money than a farm....its not at all a bad idea. The only problem is the current crop of options isnt the greatest.

I think many on here were making that suggestion a couple of years ago when we thought we were still a big market team. The one thing we can do is spend money to acquire talent. You can't do it in the draft, or internationally, or even in FA so much anymore, but you can do it on bad contracts. The Angels may be gun shy about spending money going forward but if they are going to try and play above mid market then this is the playbook. 

[TroutAdell]

Given that Arte won't go over the tax line and still have the Albert contract I don't think an over priced contract would fit. At this point you can't worry about what Trout will do. If he doesn't sign an extension by the end of next season then you might have to consider trading him for a big haul of controllable prospects. The best case scenario would be Albert taking a buyout. 

The Angels have so many holes and no prospects near MLB ready it makes no sense to take on any big contracts.

[Docwaukee]

no way in hell I sell the farm for Baez.  I'd rather have Ian Happ.  

[Inside Pitch]

2 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

no way in hell I sell the farm for Baez.  I'd rather have Ian Happ.  

Amen on Happ.

[Farmbuildingfan]

4 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I believe I did that when I said he was a good player..   

great

ɡrāt/

adjective

1. 1.

   of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average.

    

To be clear -- I believe he's a great defensive player...   beyond that, he's not been great .... yet.

You talked up his abilities as a baserunner -- can you elaborate?  Fangraphs has his BsR at 1.3 this year -- Espinosa was at 5.1 last year, and 1.3 would put him 52nd in MLB this season -- so it's not like I'm looking at his pedestrian SB totals and dismissing his base-running as a result, he's just not done anything "great" in the area to date -- at least it hasn't shown up in games yet.  I do agree he runs well.   

Bat wise he's been an 86 OPS+ hitter to date, he's yet to finish a single full season with a league average OPS+, certainly good but not close to great IMO.  His best season to date is 95, he's currently at 94 so -- he's certainly got the chops to be better than he has been.  But, just to compare him to someone people here know beyond their reputation....  Howie Kendrick's OPS+  was 98 through his age 24 season -- and his career worst in any year was 87.  Baez has pop for a middle IFer, but he's not an offensive monster by any stretch and definitely not for 2B.  The NL average OPS at 2B is .759, for MLB it's .750 -- Baez is at .748 and again, he plays in Wrigley and in the NL Central where the competition leaves a lot to be desired and you have three very offensive leaning parks.   

Baez is still someone to dream on, he's young -- but he's not been great at anything other than defense, IMO.  Again, using someone people can relate to...  Howie Kendrick managed 5.8 bWAR through his age 24 season (in 50 fewer games), Baez 4.0.  I don't recall anyone believing Howie Kendrick was already a great 2B after his age 24 season... but basing it strictly on the information available he had produced greater results.  

I like Baez, it's not my intent to discredit the kid or talk him down I believe his better days are coming and I don't believe he needs to be great in order to be valuable...  I've made the same argument when talking about Grichuk -- power and defense will always play up.  But, at the end of the day you and I both agree Baez is not someone you empty out a farm system for..

THAT was my point.

 

 

Do you have enough money to buy the Angels?

I always fear an empty farm with Moreno.

No one player  is worth emptying the farm.

 

.

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, Farmbuildingfan said:

Do you have enough money to buy the Angels?

I always fear an empty farm with Moreno.

No one player  is worth emptying the farm.

 

.

Not sure if you know this but it's been a little while since we traded anything of value from our minor leagues.  We traded Newcomb for a very good 26 year old short stop.  Before that you have to go to the David Freese trade or the Greinke trade.  

[WeatherWonk]

35 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Not sure if you know this but it's been a little while since we traded anything of value from our minor leagues.  We traded Newcomb for a very good 26 year old short stop.  Before that you have to go to the David Freese trade or the Greinke trade.  

Well, yeah, that's because we havent had a farm in so long. Who'd want to trade for what we have?

A large part of the blame lies with Arte;  we lost picks with bad FA signings.

[Angel Oracle]

The next two off-seasons will truly gauge where Arte stands, as a lot of AAV payroll is removed 3 months from now.

[Stradling]

9 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

Well, yeah, that's because we havent had a farm in so long. Who'd want to trade for what we have?

A large part of the blame lies with Arte;  we lost picks with bad FA signings.

Every year we see the Dodgers, Red Sox and the Yankees sign free agents and yet they still have good farm systems.  Maybe Arte is to blame, but  because he hired Jerry.

[UndertheHalo]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

Every year we see the Dodgers, Red Sox and the Yankees sign free agents and yet they still have good farm systems.  Maybe Arte is to blame, but  because he hired Jerry.

This is a great point that can't be repeated enough.  Enough with the bullshit about the Hamilton and Pujols contracts.  The problem is that the Angels scouting has been an atrouscious dismal failure.  Compounded by miserable failure in international acquisition. 

Name me one Angels farm hand that's not a bullpen pitcher that's come up done ANYTHING to help the Angels in any meaningful way since Kole Calhoun.  It's an abomination. 

<edit> I'll grant Mark Trumbo.  He was OK and we had him for a few season, but the Angels didn't even get his best year.  Anyway the point stands the Angels haven't got shit. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by UndertheHalo

[WeatherWonk]

2 hours ago, Stradling said:

Every year we see the Dodgers, Red Sox and the Yankees sign free agents and yet they still have good farm systems.  Maybe Arte is to blame, but  because he hired Jerry.

What can I say? We suck at scouting. We suck at signing free agents. 

What's left? 

[Angel Oracle]

Hopefully, Eppler is reversing the Reagins and Dipeutered damage.

Takes time though, both of them totally reeked of putridness.

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

What can I say? We suck at scouting. We suck at signing free agents. 

What's left? 

This is all past tense for the most part.  

[Farmbuildingfan]

17 hours ago, WeatherWonk said:

Well, yeah, that's because we havent had a farm in so long. Who'd want to trade for what we have?

A large part of the blame lies with Arte;  we lost picks with bad FA signings.

Stradling made a good observation, but just because the Angels have showed no recent signs of emptying the farm does not yet demonstrate a farm building philosophy.

 

There is little to empty.

We therefore do not know whether Arte has changed his philosophy.

Until I see more evidence, I am presuming that  if the Angels draft some grade A prospects, that Moreno would rather trade them for a veteran player that will help them win now and sacrifice the longer term future.

The Angels seem to have a jekyll and hyde organization.

They have been remarkable at assembling a strong young pitching staff, injuries not withstanding, but has any organization done more poorly at putting together a position player roster?

I blame Moreno for being last in the AL in run production.

 

[Docwaukee]

28 minutes ago, Farmbuildingfan said:

Stradling made a good observation, but just because the Angels have showed no recent signs of emptying the farm does not yet demonstrate a farm building philosophy.

 

There is little to empty.

We therefore do not know whether Arte has changed his philosophy.

Until I see more evidence, I am presuming that  if the Angels draft some grade A prospects, that Moreno would rather trade them for a veteran player that will help them win now and sacrifice the longer term future.

The Angels seem to have a jekyll and hyde organization.

They have been remarkable at assembling a strong young pitching staff, injuries not withstanding, but has any organization done more poorly at putting together a position player roster?

I blame Moreno for being last in the AL in run production.

 

the good young pitching staff is essentially a hold over of drafts that happened before Dipoto.  JD's one good skill was getting young unproven, major league ready players for known  major league players.  As evident by the trumbo, conger, and kendrick trades.  Yet, even those haven't been and may never be fully realized because of injury.  Even though they were lauded at the time and are retrospectively good.  

Granted, JD and his team drafted pitchers at a disproportionately high rate during his 4 drafts, but 2012 and 2013 are likely to have produced zero everyday major league position players and zero starting pitchers with a chance of being in a rotation long term.  There is one guy who will likely have a solid major league career.  Key Middleton.  

2014 has Newcomb, the 15th overall pick but otherwise the same criteria applies.  No regulars unless a couple guys fin their way to the pen.  

2015 is the only draft that has some guys with potential and that might be because it's still pretty early for them.  Ward was a stupid first round pick but it allowed us to draft Jahmai Jones.  There is also Grayson Long (upside of a #2/3.  probably ends up mid to back end).  Sanger (OFer with some potential.  tough year last year because they tried to switch him to an IF position.  .848ops at A+) who probably ends up a 4th OFer or fringe starter for a couple seasons.  David Fletcher (has some starter potential but likely a util).  And a few others that you can dream on a little like Vega, Blumenfeld.

As someone else mentioned, we won't be trading our top prospects for short term players anymore.  It will only be for guys like Simmons.  Young and club controlled.  

We've got several guys who are fringy top 100 but at least top 150.  Jones, Adell, Marsh, Barria, Thaiss, Rodriguez, Canning.  We already had a few of those guys coming into this season with major holes to fill at LF, 2b, in the pen and SP.  We used none of them to do so.  

The philosophy will never change.  The major league club comes first.  What has changed is how to make sure that happens long term.  Two years in a row we've maxed out our draft allotment including absorbing penalties and we are likely to do the same on the international front.  We're still gonna make trades and sign free agents but going forward, it won't be an either/or in terms of player development.  it will be and.  that will be the big difference.  

It still boils down to a team's ability to assess talent.  Eppler's crew seems pretty solid in that regard so far.  But guys like Adell and Deveaux need to pan out.  As important, however, is that so do guys like Brennon Lund, Troy Montgomery, Cole Duensing, Nonie Williams, Jerryell Rivera, and Griffin Canning.  Not all of them of course, but at least a couple.  That's where the rubber will meet the road.  

[DMVol]

16 hours ago, WeatherWonk said:

What can I say?.....We suck at signing free agents. 

16 hours ago, Stradling said:

This is all past tense for the most part.  

 

For the present part, there is Valbuena....

[Adam]

Upton