Taking on an overpriced player?

[Homebrewer]

That's what the Dodgers did. The ownership group overpaid a bunch of older stars to re-build goodwill with the fan base after taking over from a shithead owner. They kept winning enough to get into the post season, and at the same time drafted and scouted well until they developed a group of solid young studs.

They had money to burn. 

We have Arte Moreno.  The only way that route is going to work in Anaheim, is with new ownership.

[CanadianHalo]

Yesterday on the Fox pregame show Rosenthal said the Cubs were possibly open to the idea of trading away one of their young position players. 

I'd be willing to trade anyone not named Adell in our farm system or anyone from our bullpen to get Javier Baez. 

Baez is only 24 and could set up shop at 2B for us for a long time. Baez and Simmons would make for a hell of a duo up the middle. 

As for overpriced players... I'd take on Cespedes and Upton (although Upton will for sure opt out so trading anything away for him would be dumb). The only way I'm trading for Stanton is if the Marlins took Pujols but with Pujols now being a full time DH that obviously doesn't work.

[Inside Pitch]

31 minutes ago, CanadianHalo said:

Yesterday on the Fox pregame show Rosenthal said the Cubs were possibly open to the idea of trading away one of their young position players. 

I'd be willing to trade anyone not named Adell in our farm system or anyone from our bullpen to get Javier Baez. 

Baez is only 24 and could set up shop at 2B for us for a long time. Baez and Simmons would make for a hell of a duo up the middle. 

As for overpriced players... I'd take on Cespedes and Upton (although Upton will for sure opt out so trading anything away for him would be dumb). The only way I'm trading for Stanton is if the Marlins took Pujols but with Pujols now being a full time DH that obviously doesn't work.

Then you'd be bitching left and right when he posts a .220/.270/.410 batting line in Anaheim.   Baez has a .650ish neutral park OPS...   His primary offensive asset is his power.  He doesn't walk much, he K's a great deal, his greatest attribute is his defense.  I understand he's a young guy so there is always the possibility that he will take a step forward but he's not really shown a lot of improvement in the areas of his game that were viewed as problematic -- he's still striking out 25% of the time and walking 5% of the time. I'm not normally one to harp about K's but he's played 299 MLB games and has K'd 295 times..    It's not like it's a case of a young guy still figuring it out either -- in 397 minor league games he's K'ed 430 times.  He's not going to out-athlete anyone in MLB like he did the minors, and the AL isn't the NL.

Basically Baez is possibly the one guy I'd not trade everyone not named Adell for and given the off field issues that are mounting for their SS -- he's likely someone they would prefer to retain and slide over should they be able to move Russell.

[Glen]

14 hours ago, Dochalo said:

 

Stanton:  Would you?  Age 27.  Back on track after a less than superstar type year last year.  Career 142 ops+.  Solid defender.  10 years left on his contract unless he opts out which I can't imagine.  295 mil left not including this year.  Holy hell!  But you've got to think he's gonna be really good for another 5 years.  

 

 

Isn't that about the exact same thing we said when we signed Pujols?

Anyway...as others have said and you yourself pointed out, none of those particularly attractive options.  Maybe Verlander or Upton if you can get either one for cheap.

[eligrba]

8 hours ago, Homebrewer said:

That's what the Dodgers did. The ownership group overpaid a bunch of older stars to re-build goodwill with the fan base after taking over from a shithead owner. They kept winning enough to get into the post season, and at the same time drafted and scouted well until they developed a group of solid young studs.

They had money to burn. 

We have Arte Moreno.  The only way that route is going to work in Anaheim, is with new ownership.

Didn't the Dodgers also receive some prospects along with those contracts?  I thought the Dodgers essentially rebuilt their farm system using their ability to take on bad contracts by charging the other teams valuable prospects.  The Dodgers received more than simply bad contracts from those teams.

[CanadianHalo]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Then you'd be bitching left and right when he posts a .220/.270/.410 batting line in Anaheim.   Baez has a .650ish neutral park OPS...   His primary offensive asset is his power.  He doesn't walk much, he K's a great deal, his greatest attribute is his defense.  I understand he's a young guy so there is always the possibility that he will take a step forward but he's not really shown a lot of improvement in the areas of his game that were viewed as problematic -- he's still striking out 25% of the time and walking 5% of the time. I'm not normally one to harp about K's but he's played 299 MLB games and has K'd 295 times..    It's not like it's a case of a young guy still figuring it out either -- in 397 minor league games he's K'ed 430 times.  He's not going to out-athlete anyone in MLB like he did the minors, and the AL isn't the NL.

Basically Baez is possibly the one guy I'd not trade everyone not named Adell for and given the off field issues that are mounting for their SS -- he's likely someone they would prefer to retain and slide over should they be able to move Russell.

You know who also strikes out roughly 25% of the time and walks a little less than 5%? Jonathon Schoop and I'd gladly take him as well. I was one of the few that was excited when we heard about the possible rumour Santiago could be dealt to the O's because I wanted Schoop. 

Baez is only 24 and is playing all around the diamond. Let him get comfy at 2B and not have to worry about someone breathing down his neck and I think his bat will come back around. 

You're also grossly overvaluing our farm system. It's crap, period. 

Give me a 24 yo stud defensive 2B with legit pop and attitude over one of our underachieving prospects any day. 

[arch stanton]

I can't say that I'm buying the hype on Baez. 34 HR and 295 Ks in 1020 NL Central PAs. Call me when he learns to lay off the slider

[Stradling]

So Baez is the 24 year old slightly better version of Espinosa?

[Glen]

So you're saying he's an improvement?

[CanadianHalo]

There's also Dee Gordon, who has heated up as of late but I could see Miami still wanting to unload his contract. I'd be open to taking on that contract since he'd fill our need at leadoff, allowing us to potentially sign a power corner outfielder this offseason.

Tough to play this game when no one has any idea how willing Arte is to spend money.

[Angel Oracle]

I'd have BOTH Gordon and Maybin at the top two spots, followed by Trout.   Imagine the good pitches Trout would get then.   Gordon is on pace for a third 50+ steals season.

Gordon has either 3 years/$39 million, or 4 years/$52 million remaining on his contract.

Two main issues are 1) needing higher BA due to not walking much although he's hit at least close to .300 in 3 of the past 4 seasons, and 2) how he would fare in a new league.

Still, a rock solid upgrade from Espinohitsa

Gordon, Maybin, Trout, Calhoun, Pujols, Simmons, Maldonado, new 1B, Cowart

[Stradling]

18 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

I'd have BOTH Gordon and Maybin at the top two spots, followed by Trout.   Imagine the good pitches Trout would get then.   Gordon is on pace for a third 50+ steals season.

Gordon has either 3 years/$39 million, or 4 years/$52 million remaining on his contract.

Two main issues are 1) needing higher BA due to not walking much although he's hit at least close to .300 in 3 of the past 4 seasons, and 2) how he would fare in a new league.

Still, a rock solid upgrade from Espinohitsa

Gordon, Maybin, Trout, Calhoun, Pujols, Simmons, Maldonado, new 1B, Cowart

Honestly that would be awesome.  It would give us an exciting top of the line up, without breaking the bank.  You could then put Cowart at 3rd and Cron at 1st for some affordability.  Then spend whatever is in the budget on pitching. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, CanadianHalo said:

You know who also strikes out roughly 25% of the time and walks a little less than 5%? Jonathon Schoop and I'd gladly take him as well. I was one of the few that was excited when we heard about the possible rumour Santiago could be dealt to the O's because I wanted Schoop. 

Baez is only 24 and is playing all around the diamond. Let him get comfy at 2B and not have to worry about someone breathing down his neck and I think his bat will come back around. 

You're also grossly overvaluing our farm system. It's crap, period. 

Give me a 24 yo stud defensive 2B with legit pop and attitude over one of our underachieving prospects any day. 

LOL. I'm not overvaluing our farm system -- it's just a case of beware aware of what Baez is and isn't.  What I'm saying is that if we are going to trade away everything in the system away for a player... that player shouldn't be Danny Espinosa with upside.
 

[AngelStew43]

I would listen on Dee Gordon.  Also Stanton.  We need some star power to assist Trout, or we won't be going anywhere.  Also, any aces that become available.  Cole especially. 

And yes I would trade Jahmai Jones to bring Cole in here.

[Angel Oracle]

I'm not sure what future has in store for Gerrit Cole.   He was one of the best in MLB in 2015, but has fallen off somewhat significantly since then with an ERA around 4.00.   And, after being stingy with HRs allowed through 2016, he's already allowed 19 in 107 innings (8 more than previous high of 11).

[arch stanton]

Gordon would be nice but of all the players mentioned, Stanton is one who has a realistic shot of putting together the type of MVP-caliber season that when combined with Trout and some on base guys in front of them could make us a monster. And if that happened he'd possibly opt out after 2020 and look for an even bigger pot of gold making it a win/win/win situation

[Stradling]

Imagine all the fastballs Staton would get batting with Trout on first base. 

[Angel Oracle]

Or we could ultimately dream.

Gordon, Maybin, Trout, Stanton

Of course, would Gordon and Stanton empty the rebuilding farm?

Money wise, if Pujols wasn't making $114 million over the next 4 seasons, that Stanton money could easily be added.

[Homebrewer]

2 hours ago, eligrba said:

Didn't the Dodgers also receive some prospects along with those contracts?  I thought the Dodgers essentially rebuilt their farm system using their ability to take on bad contracts by charging the other teams valuable prospects.  The Dodgers received more than simply bad contracts from those teams.

Exactly what they did. Not every time, but a few times. Still had to scout and develop those prospects. Point being that if you are going to take on someone's overpriced player, that's what you need to do.

[CanadianHalo]

50 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

LOL. I'm not overvaluing our farm system -- it's just a case of beware aware of what Baez is and isn't.  What I'm saying is that if we are going to trade away everything in the system away for a player... that player shouldn't be Danny Espinosa with upside.
 

Ha! Rattled much? 

"Danny Espinosa with upside" The .162 hitting Espinosa, good one!

 

Also I'm keeping Escobar and letting Maybin go if we went with Dee Gordon. I'm keeping Escobar moving forward regardless but with Gordon taking over lead off duties I'd rather sign another OF'er.

[Second Base]

It still boggles my mind. The Marlins turned 6 years of Andrew Heaney into 4 years of Dee Gordon. Freakin' awesome deal for them. The Dodgers turned 4 years of Dee Gordon into 1 year of Howie Kendrick. Horrible deal for them. And the Angels turned 1 year of Howie Kendrick into 6 of Heaney. 

We came out on top there. Even with the TJ surgery.

[Inside Pitch]

40 minutes ago, CanadianHalo said:

Ha! Rattled much? 

"Danny Espinosa with upside" The .162 hitting Espinosa, good one!

 

Rattled?   Dear Lord, some of you vastly overestimate your impact on others.  If you believe Baez's mediocre offensive game will carry over from Wrigley and the NL to Angel Stadum and the AL, that's on you.

At the end of the day ... you're advocating trading the farm away for a guy that is essentially a better version of Danny Espinosa.   Or if you want a different example..  Randal Grichuk?   He's basically the OF version of Baez only he's actually managed a career OPS+ above 100.... even after he has stunk it up this season.

Baez is a good player, I wouldn't mind having him.  But he's not a guy you empty a farm for IMO.  

[zenmaster]

Stanton is the only one I'd consider but I'd still not do it. 

[Second Base]

13 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

Rattled?   Dear Lord, some of you vastly estimate your impact on others.     If you believe Baez's mediocre offensive game will carry over from Wrigley and the NL to Angel Stadum and the AL, that's on you.

At the end of the day -- you're advocating trading the farm away for a guy that is essentially a better version of Danny Espinosa.   Or if you want a different example..  Randal Grichuk?   He's basically the OF version of Baez only he's actually managed a career OPS+ above 100.... even after he has stunk it up this season.

Baez is a good player, I wouldn't mind having him.  But he's not a guy you empty a farm for IMO.  

Baez is a great player. The things he does on the base paths and in the field are incredible. Let's give credit where it's due. 

But you're right in that you don't empty the farm for him. You don't empty the farm for anyone unless they're truly elite ball players (the Miguel Cabrera trade comes to mind). 

The only way I empty the farm for Baez is if he hits .300 and goes 30/30 next year and is willing to sign an extension. Neither of those will happen.

The only guys that are even remotely attainable (and I stretch the word remotely here) are Giancarlos Stanton and Starling Marte. Power is the last tool to fade and Stanton will be good for another 10 years. And Marte, he just does everything and having him and Trout is the same OF would be ludicrous....in a good way.

[Inside Pitch]

3 hours ago, Scotty@AW said:

Baez is a great player. The things he does on the base paths and in the field are incredible. Let's give credit where it's due. 

I believe I did that when I said he was a good player..   

great

ɡrāt/

adjective

1. 1.

   of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average.

    

To be clear -- I believe he's a great defensive player...   beyond that, he's not been great .... yet.

You talked up his abilities as a baserunner -- can you elaborate?  Fangraphs has his BsR at 1.3 this year -- Espinosa was at 5.1 last year, and 1.3 would put him 52nd in MLB this season -- so it's not like I'm looking at his pedestrian SB totals and dismissing his base-running as a result, he's just not done anything "great" in the area to date -- at least it hasn't shown up in games yet.  I do agree he runs well.   

Bat wise he's been an 86 OPS+ hitter to date, he's yet to finish a single full season with a league average OPS+, certainly good but not close to great IMO.  His best season to date is 95, he's currently at 94 so -- he's certainly got the chops to be better than he has been.  But, just to compare him to someone people here know beyond their reputation....  Howie Kendrick's OPS+  was 98 through his age 24 season -- and his career worst in any year was 87.  Baez has pop for a middle IFer, but he's not an offensive monster by any stretch and definitely not for 2B.  The NL average OPS at 2B is .759, for MLB it's .750 -- Baez is at .748 and again, he plays in Wrigley and in the NL Central where the competition leaves a lot to be desired and you have three very offensive leaning parks.   

Baez is still someone to dream on, he's young -- but he's not been great at anything other than defense, IMO.  Again, using someone people can relate to...  Howie Kendrick managed 5.8 bWAR through his age 24 season (in 50 fewer games), Baez 4.0.  I don't recall anyone believing Howie Kendrick was already a great 2B after his age 24 season... but basing it strictly on the information available he had produced greater results.  

I like Baez, it's not my intent to discredit the kid or talk him down I believe his better days are coming and I don't believe he needs to be great in order to be valuable...  I've made the same argument when talking about Grichuk -- power and defense will always play up.  But, at the end of the day you and I both agree Baez is not someone you empty out a farm system for..

THAT was my point.