AngelsWin.com Today: The Scioscia Era – Where did it go wrong?

[Stradling]

21 hours ago, nate said:

Screw Claude

I agree

[Lou]

On May 28, 2017 at 7:57 AM, eligrba said:

Latex salesman?

I just noticed it.....made me laugh out loud.

That's been up there for at least a couple of years without anyone noticing 

[Lou]

I'll tell you exactly where Scioscia went wrong.

He had early success, which included leading us to a point where no Angels fan EVER truly believed we would be in our lifetimes - World Series Champions.

That created an entire new fan base that not only expects, but demands that we be World Series contenders each and every year.  What I now witness is no better than the Red Sox fanholes we have despised before and after winning a title. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Lou

[Stradling]

18 minutes ago, Lou said:

I'll tell you exactly where Scioscia went wrong.

He had early success, which included leading us to a point where no Angels fan EVER truly believed we would be in our lifetimes - World Series Champions.

That created an entire new fan base that not only expects, but demands that we be World Series contenders each and every year.  What I now witness is no better than the Red Sox fanholes we have despised before and after winning a title. 

You witness it here on AngelsWin and possibly other fan sites, but do you witness it in the real world?  I've never met an Angel fan in real life like some of the blowhard message board opinion people.  

[Stradling]

On 5/28/2017 at 8:29 AM, tdawg87 said:

I think they were better than every Boston team they lost to. They just did their typical pants-shitting against that team. 

There's no way the Royals in 2014 were a better team. 

Boston had a better OPS+ and ERA+ than us each year they beat us, I think.  

[fan_since79]

25 minutes ago, Lou said:

I'll tell you exactly where Scioscia went wrong.

He had early success, which included leading us to a point where no Angels fan EVER truly believed we would be in our lifetimes - World Series Champions.

That created an entire new fan base that not only expects, but demands that we be World Series contenders each and every year.  What I now witness is no better than the Red Sox fanholes we have despised before and after winning a title. 

I don't expect them to be in the Series every year. I would like to see them make the playoffs sometime in the next decade and actually win a game. 2009 is fading in my memory.

[Lou]

14 minutes ago, Stradling said:

You witness it here on AngelsWin and possibly other fan sites, but do you witness it in the real world?  I've never met an Angel fan in real life like some of the blowhard message board opinion people.  

Yes, I've witnessed at the stadium and when I'm out somewhere watching a game 

[Lou]

11 minutes ago, fan_since79 said:

I don't expect them to be in the Series every year. I would like to see them make the playoffs sometime in the next decade and actually win a game. 2009 is fading in my memory.

Really? I remember it well.

Perhaps a little more seafood, whole grains and peanut butter can help you out a bit what that problem

[Ohtaniland]

54 minutes ago, Lou said:

I'll tell you exactly where Scioscia went wrong.

He had early success, which included leading us to a point where no Angels fan EVER truly believed we would be in our lifetimes - World Series Champions.

That created an entire new fan base that not only expects, but demands that we be World Series contenders each and every year.  What I now witness is no better than the Red Sox fanholes we have despised before and after winning a title. 

Reagins, Dipoto, Pujols and Hamilton derailed everything.

Oh and Napoli.

[Slegnaac]

On 5/28/2017 at 8:29 AM, tdawg87 said:

I think they were better than every Boston team they lost to. They just did their typical pants-shitting against that team. 

There's no way the Royals in 2014 were a better team. 

As I recall the Royals hit a lot balls that land in just the right location, while making exceptional plays on the balls hit by the Angels. 

[fan_since79]

14 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

Reagins, Dipoto, Pujols and Hamilton derailed everything.

Oh and Napoli.

Napoli vs. the Angels:

.332/.433/.660

20 HR, 47 RBI in 68 games

LOL

Edited May 29, 2017 by fan_since79

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

Reagins, Dipoto, Pujols and Hamilton derailed everything.

Oh and Napoli.

What derailed it was drafting poorly.  I get that not having a first rounder hurt but to not find serviceable players in the 2nd round in all these years is what the problem is.  This is also a result of the 2010 draft being such a crummy draft for the team.  Napoli has nothing to do with how we're doing now.  Looking at the free agent class of 2013 when we signed Hamilton, none of those players would be helping now.  If we would have held onto the money and used it later you'd still have the guy who decided to go after Hamilton deciding who else to sign, so it likely would have gone poorly.  Albert was going to happen, it was Arte and Jerry's baby.  He declined much quicker than imagined.  But when all is said and done it's the teams inability to provide useful players from the minors that has hurt this teams ability to make the playoffs. I trust Eppler to draft better than Dipoto, which won't be hard.  

[yk9001]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

To be honest, a rotation with Washburn, Ortiz, Appier, and rookie Lackey does not conjure up words like great.

Appier was decent.   Lackey was still learning how to pitch.   Ortiz gave up tons of HRs but still managed a sub 4.00 ERA.

The bullpen was huge that season.

Appier was on fumes by the end of the year.

[Lou]

1 hour ago, fan_since79 said:

Napoli vs. the Angels:

.332/.433/.660

20 HR, 47 RBI in 68 games

LOL

That is just insane 

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, ANAHEIMBOB said:

I remember Collin Cowgill playing Scioscia baseball getting thrown out at third on a lazy fly ball to center field.

Of course you do.  You couldn't possibly remember anything that doesn't put all the blame on Scioscia.  One Trick Pony.  

[nate]

It wasn't just drafting, it was the whole org strategy in 2009+, terrible FA signings, terrible drafts, trading away all of the prospects for rentals.  Scioscia not being able to adapt, Arte picking awful GMs and extending Scioscia to a ludicrous contract extension.

And I have never met a sports fan that doesn't expect their team to at least compete every year, knowing that there are going to be down years but missing the playoffs 6 out of 7 years with a top payroll is not acceptable.

[Brandon]

you must not know any cleveland browns fans

[Inside Pitch]

59 minutes ago, nate said:

It wasn't just drafting, it was the whole org strategy in 2009+, terrible FA signings, terrible drafts, trading away all of the prospects for rentals.  Scioscia not being able to adapt, Arte picking awful GMs and extending Scioscia to a ludicrous contract extension.

And I have never met a sports fan that doesn't expect their team to at least compete every year, knowing that there are going to be down years but missing the playoffs 6 out of 7 years with a top payroll is not acceptable.

Not meant as a defense of the man, but rather, whenever I see this talk about the failure to adapt I wonder what exactly it is people believe he failed to adapt to?  

The team wasn't fast, so maybe they should have run less but how could he have adapted better to the arson squad bullpens and the poor player decisions being made?  Put the Napoli trade on him if you want -- but it's not like he was asking for them to add Pujols that winter..  or Hamilton...  anyone that believes that is deluding themselves.  Scioscia was asking for pitching that first winter under JD and all the same people here mocked him for it because in their minds what the team REALLY needed was a MOTO bat...   History has proven MS was actually correct, the pitching was the biggest issue -- they didn't need to spend big ...  Not at 1B, not in LF.    But hey -- the fan-base wanted to play with the big boys in NY and they wanted HR hitters.   Fanbase got what it wanted... including the FA failures that both the Red Sox and the Yankees learned to accept and absorb...   But no sooner did they get what they wanted than they turned around and blamed the mess on the one guy that publicly stood at the Winter meetings when Pujols was signed and said he hoped the Angels would add some more pitching...

2012 OPS+ 114, ERA+ 95

2013 OPS+ 110, ERA+ 89

2014 OPS+ 110, ERA+ 101 (98 wins)

2015 OPS+ 97,  ERA+ 95

Mike Scioscia isn't perfect but he's hardly deserving of the scorn he gets from people here.  Revisionist history has a funny way of ignoring reality.

[ABC]

[Inside Pitch]

LOL...   As always -- anything requiring actual thought is beyond some people.

 

[nate]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

you must not know any cleveland browns fans

there expect it but are just more delusional than the rest

[nate]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Not meant as a defense of the man, but rather, whenever I see this talk about the failure to adapt I wonder what exactly it is people believe he failed to adapt to?  

The team wasn't fast, so maybe they should have run less but how could he have adapted better to the arson squad bullpens and the poor player decisions being made?  Put the Napoli trade on him if you want -- but it's not like he was asking for them to add Pujols that winter..  or Hamilton...  anyone that believes that is deluding themselves.  Scioscia was asking for pitching that first winter under JD and all the same people here mocked him for it because in their minds what the team REALLY needed was a MOTO bat...   History has proven MS was actually correct, the pitching was the biggest issue -- they didn't need to spend big ...  Not at 1B, not in LF.    But hey -- the fan-base wanted to play with the big boys in NY and they wanted HR hitters.   Fanbase got what it wanted... including the FA failures that both the Red Sox and the Yankees learned to accept and absorb...   But no sooner did they get what they wanted than they turned around and blamed the mess on the one guy that publicly stood at the Winter meetings when Pujols was signed and said he hoped the Angels would add some more pitching...

2012 OPS+ 114, ERA+ 95

2013 OPS+ 110, ERA+ 89

2014 OPS+ 110, ERA+ 101 (98 wins)

2015 OPS+ 97,  ERA+ 95

Mike Scioscia isn't perfect but he's hardly deserving of the scorn he gets from people here.  Revisionist history has a funny way of ignoring reality.

Mike Napoli is probably the biggest, but his lineup decisions were always out there.  Not to mention his surrender lineups on day games after a night game.

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

What derailed it was drafting poorly.  I get that not having a first rounder hurt but to not find serviceable players in the 2nd round in all these years is what the problem is.  This is also a result of the 2010 draft being such a crummy draft for the team.  Napoli has nothing to do with how we're doing now.  Looking at the free agent class of 2013 when we signed Hamilton, none of those players would be helping now.  If we would have held onto the money and used it later you'd still have the guy who decided to go after Hamilton deciding who else to sign, so it likely would have gone poorly.  Albert was going to happen, it was Arte and Jerry's baby.  He declined much quicker than imagined.  But when all is said and done it's the teams inability to provide useful players from the minors that has hurt this teams ability to make the playoffs. I trust Eppler to draft better than Dipoto, which won't be hard.  

It's amazing how so many people keep scapegoating the Pujols and Hamilton signings as the reason this team isn't that good. The real reasons are clear - we spend our off seasons building our roster off the waiver wire.

When we were going good we were talking about which short stop prospect between Aybar, Wood, and Callaspo was going to be the best. We debated the merits of Kotchman vs Morales, or if Skaggs, Corbin and Saunders was too much for Dan Haren. Now we look for clean peanuts.

[Inside Pitch]

32 minutes ago, nate said:

Mike Napoli is probably the biggest, but his lineup decisions were always out there.  Not to mention his surrender lineups on day games after a night game.

Wasn't asking what he's to blame for, we all have a list of Scioscia-isms we hate...  I was curious what it is you believe he failed to adapt to.  

I don't like the contact play, I hate the notion of productive outs.... there are things in his playbook that I absolutely despise, but there are a lot of people that talk about how he has failed to adapt or how his style of play doesn't work anymore.  Meanwhile, the KC Royals went to back to back WS playing the same exact style of ball that supposedly doesn't work anymore. 

Other than running less as the team got less athletic, not sure what it was he failed to adapt to?  

Maybe I'm just interpreting the statement different than how people mean it.

[nate]

3 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Wasn't asking what he's to blame for, we all have a list of Scioscia-isms we hate...  I was curious what it is you believe he failed to adapt to.  

I don't like the contact play, I hate the notion of productive outs.... there are things in his playbook that I absolutely despise, but there are a lot of people that talk about how he has failed to adapt or how his style of play doesn't work anymore.  Meanwhile, the KC Royals went to back to back WS playing the same exact style of ball that supposedly doesn't work anymore. 

Other than running less as the team got less athletic, not sure what it was he failed to adapt to?  

Maybe I'm just interpreting the statement different than how people mean it.

He kept trying to play a style that didn't match his roster.