Richards to 60 day DL...

[yk9001]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

I'm sure for the most part it has to do with the normal wear and tear on a pitcher these days.  Most kids play year round in a lot of states.  They also play travel ball as well as high school ball. 

I actually think that the Nolan Ryan/Tom Seaver/Jim Palmer era of fastball pitchers pitching 300+ innings and four man rotations 40 years ago, and the complete inability for pitchers to do it today, is fascinating.  No reason given (pitching earlier, today's players are pussies, etc) satisfies me yet.  I don't have a 'take', I am just stunned that today's pitchers can't do it.

[Stradling]

And with Palmer didn't his career end at 32 or some young age like that?  

 

Edit: nope he pitched until he was 38 but his last two years he only pitched a small number of games.  

[yk9001]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

And with Palmer didn't his career end at 32 or some young age like that?  

That was sandy koufax.  Palmer pitched a CG shutout in the 1966 world series and won a game in the 1983 world series.  Nice, long, hall of fame career.  My favorite windup ever.  My favorite pitcher ever.

[Stradling]

Just read a bit about him.  Your favorite pitcher ever pitched two years 66 and 67 then got sent to the minors, had surgery and didn't pitch in the majors in 68.  He was actually left unprotected in the expansion draft but wasn't selected.  Came back in 69 with the Orioles and was great after that.  

[yk9001]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Just read a bit about him.  Your favorite pitcher ever pitched two years 66 and 67 then got sent to the minors, had surgery and didn't pitch in the majors in 68.  He was actually left unprotected in the expansion draft but wasn't selected.  Came back in 69 with the Orioles and was great after that.  

I didn't say he was never injured.  Without looking at baseball reference, I believe he was injured in 74 as well.

But those guys pitched year after year, 300+ innings, 4 man rotations.

 

I am going to look up who led the leagues in innings last year.

[Inside Pitch]

45 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

He's suffered two separate arm injuries and both severe enough to give him long stints on the disabled list and the unknown zone as far as treatment. His bread and butter pitch is a 97 mph fastball so I think you can now categorize him as high risk in terms of future investment. 

One is a common malady in MLB with a high success rate.  The other is an undetermined condition that is being monitored - that's a lot of dirt you are piling on the guy given the info we have.

45 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

Remember that Richards did say that he was going to try to recapture what he was doing in 2014 or 85%.

He said he was going to try to throw at 85% effort - not be 85% of what he had been.  Reading is fundamental.  Here's a link...  http://www.ocregister.com/2017/03/26/angels-garrett-richards-hoping-85-percent-mindset-can-be-key-to-a-healthy-successful-season/  Here's the quote.

"He calls it the “85 percent mindset.”

After Richards tossed six innings on 69 pitches in a minor-league game on Sunday, he said he’s happy the way he’s been more efficient, and more in control, now that he isn’t airing it out quite like he used to. The velocity is still at his normal level, though. He’s been throwing his fastball from 94-98 mph this spring.

“If I can throw at 85 percent, I’m able to repeat my mechanics better,” he said. “I’m able to keep everything moving downhill toward the catcher. Because I throw across my body, direction is a big thing for me. If I can eliminate a little bit of effort and keep everything moving in a straight line, it’s going to help me.”

 

[yk9001]

And palmer was a hypochondriac.  He had a neck issue after sleeping on "a bad pillow" in Oakland, and Earl Weaver about blew his stack.

[Inside Pitch]

7 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Just read a bit about him.  Your favorite pitcher ever pitched two years 66 and 67 then got sent to the minors, had surgery and didn't pitch in the majors in 68.  He was actually left unprotected in the expansion draft but wasn't selected.  Came back in 69 with the Orioles and was great after that.  

The Baby Birds as they were called all suffered a rash of injuries -- those late 60s Orioles teams are viewed by many as a study point for pitcher abuse and inning totals on pitchers before age 25...

2 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

I didn't say he was never injured.  Without looking at baseball reference, I believe he was injured in 74 as well.

Palmer re-invented himself a couple times -- dude was a freaking magician.   

[yk9001]

Palmer won a world series game in three different decades.  He never gave up a grand slam in almost 4000 innings pitched.

[the dude abides]

27 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

I am going to look up who led the leagues in innings last year.

Price with 230.0 last year.  Scherzer had 228.1.

I scanned the list, and it looks like the last 300+ inning pitcher was Steve Carlton in 1980.

 

 

[Jeff Fletcher]

57 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

I actually think that the Nolan Ryan/Tom Seaver/Jim Palmer era of fastball pitchers pitching 300+ innings and four man rotations 40 years ago, and the complete inability for pitchers to do it today, is fascinating.  No reason given (pitching earlier, today's players are pussies, etc) satisfies me yet.  I don't have a 'take', I am just stunned that today's pitchers can't do it.

The main reason, I think, is money. 

Pitchers now make a lot more money than they did before so you're going to be more careful with them. You aren't going to push them anywhere near the limit of what they can do because you're afraid if you push too far you'll break them. 

It starts in the minors and continues all the way. Guys can't throw 130 pitches in the majors if they've been throwing 90-100 in the minors. And who is going to have a pitcher throw 130 in the minors and risk hurting him for games that mean nothing? Same goes for working on short rest. 

Its debatable whether limiting the work really keeps pitchers healthy. You should read "The Arm."

In any case, no one has the courage to shake up the system and see what would happen if they tried to turn the trend the other way. 

There are some other legit reasons the atmosphere had changed. The strike zone is smaller than it was 40 years ago and the hitters are bigger. There's also more emphasis from hitters on the value of a walk. All of that means number of pitches it takes to get through an inning is higher. 

I suspect all these tough guys in the 50s weren't actually throwing 150 pitches in a game as much as they were throwing nine innings on 90 pitches. 

Its a different game if you can just chuck a fastball over the middle to half the hitters in the league because you know they won't hit it out. 

[Ohtaniland]

46 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

One is a common malady in MLB with a high success rate.  The other is an undetermined condition that is being monitored - that's a lot of dirt you are piling on the guy given the info we have.

He said he was going to try to throw at 85% effort - not be 85% of what he had been.  Reading is fundamental.  Here's a link...  http://www.ocregister.com/2017/03/26/angels-garrett-richards-hoping-85-percent-mindset-can-be-key-to-a-healthy-successful-season/  Here's the quote.

"He calls it the “85 percent mindset.”

After Richards tossed six innings on 69 pitches in a minor-league game on Sunday, he said he’s happy the way he’s been more efficient, and more in control, now that he isn’t airing it out quite like he used to. The velocity is still at his normal level, though. He’s been throwing his fastball from 94-98 mph this spring.

“If I can throw at 85 percent, I’m able to repeat my mechanics better,” he said. “I’m able to keep everything moving downhill toward the catcher. Because I throw across my body, direction is a big thing for me. If I can eliminate a little bit of effort and keep everything moving in a straight line, it’s going to help me.”

 

Well based on your take I'm looking forward to his arbitration hearing that will take place early next year to see how well he does. 

 

[Inside Pitch]

47 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

Well based on your take I'm looking forward to his arbitration hearing that will take place early next year to see how well he does. 

 

My "take" is that despite you speaking in absolutes the reality is nobody has any real insight into whether or not he will sign a lucrative contract.  Pretty simple.

But since you brought it up..   Richards "settled" for 6.8 mil this year after pitching 34 innings last season -- that was a 400K raise.   Which brings me back to what I said in my initial response..

"never underestimate the stupidity of MLB teams or the value of upper echelon performance pitching."

You're so determined to be right you miss the obvious.

 

[Ohtaniland]

4 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

My "take" is that despite you speaking in absolutes the reality is nobody has any real insight into whether or not he will sign a lucrative contract.  Pretty simple.

But since you brought it up..   Richards "settled" for 6.8 mil this year after pitching 34 innings last season -- that was a 400K raise.   Which brings me back to what I said in my initial response..

"never underestimate the stupidity of MLB teams or the value of upper echelon performance pitching."

You're so determined to be right you miss the obvious.

 

Well for Richards upper echelon was in 2014. He was trying to recapture that to get an upper echelon contract. His health has failed him and the Angels or other teams will be cautious with him moving forward. That's all I'm saying. He's no longer $100M material.

[Blarg]

4 hours ago, yk9001 said:

Our tv color guy a week and a half ago said that Richard's arm was "progressing nicely".

Yes, quite nicely for a prawn. 

[beatlesrule]

6 hours ago, yk9001 said:

I actually think that the Nolan Ryan/Tom Seaver/Jim Palmer era of fastball pitchers pitching 300+ innings and four man rotations 40 years ago, and the complete inability for pitchers to do it today, is fascinating.  No reason given (pitching earlier, today's players are pussies, etc) satisfies me yet.  I don't have a 'take', I am just stunned that today's pitchers can't do it.

This fascinates me too.  How is it that pitchers of today can't measure up to pitchers of yesteryear when technology is so much better now?  How were pitchers throwing 400 innings, 150 pitches a game and 40 CG a year and nowadays, people freak out if a starter is kept in after 100 pitches?

[totdprods]

7 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

This fascinates me too.  How is it that pitchers of today can't measure up to pitchers of yesteryear when technology is so much better now?  How were pitchers throwing 400 innings, 150 pitches a game and 40 CG a year and nowadays, people freak out if a starter is kept in after 100 pitches?

Only guesses I have would be either due to changes in youth sports (longer seasons, heightened pressure at younger age, poor mechanics or poor coaching being more prevalent) or possibly a result of the same argument Scotty was making in the Trout/Ruth thread about difference in competition, though that would only affect the ludicrous counting stats, not any injury issues. 

I'll throw a wild theory into the mix; something in the environment dramatically affected the population in the 70's/80's that's carried down genetically and weakened ligament strength. Like bald eagle eggs thinning due to DDTs. It's only shown up so far in younger people, specifically athletes, as the population hasn't aged enough to show how it would naturally degrade the average population. 

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

Only guesses I have would be either due to changes in youth sports (longer seasons, heightened pressure at younger age, poor mechanics or poor coaching being more prevalent) or possibly a result of the same argument Scotty was making in the Trout/Ruth thread about difference in competition, though that would only affect the ludicrous counting stats, not any injury issues. 

I'll throw a wild theory into the mix; something in the environment dramatically affected the population in the 70's/80's that's carried down genetically and weakened ligament strength. Like bald eagle eggs thinning due to DDTs. It's only shown up so far in younger people, specifically athletes, as the population hasn't aged enough to show how it would naturally degrade the average population. 

I'm guessing if we look hard enough we would find a lot of pitchers that had careers like Koufax but without the results.  They pitched a ton and were out of the game at 33 years old.  

Most of the time when people site the differences in today's pitchers to yesteryears pitchers they compare today's good pitchers to yesteryears hall of fame pitchers.  We aren't comparing footnote pitchers to the number 3 starter for Pittsburgh in the 60's.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

On 4/23/2017 at 9:06 PM, arch stanton said:

But he doesn't have elbow problems. How does TJS solve problems with biceps nerve irritation?

That was my fault for assuming without reading.

But to me, if its the same arm...

Just from experience from being a gym rat, "hip bone connected to the...". I cant help but think if he babied one thing (the elbow due to the original problem) it would have an effect elsewhere. I could and maybe am totally wrong. Ive just learned a lesson the hard way by doing that.

[arch stanton]

I'm more willing to blame the time off. For young pitchers now TJS post-op is the first time since puberty that they haven't thrown a baseball regularly. Maybe they build up scar tissue or lose some muscle in a particular area. Going all out for years, a year off then back on the horse could be a problem for some guys.

[Ohtaniland]

5 hours ago, arch stanton said:

I'm more willing to blame the time off. For young pitchers now TJS post-op is the first time since puberty that they haven't thrown a baseball regularly. Maybe they build up scar tissue or lose some muscle in a particular area. Going all out for years, a year off then back on the horse could be a problem for some guys.

I'm blaming his mechanics. I think he's trying to protect his elbow but inadvertently created another issue. Throwing 97 mph fastballs is not an easy thing to do. I may be wrong but I think he's done. Or he's going to have to it shut down this season and hope rest can fix his problems.

[Taylor]

13 hours ago, totdprods said:

Only guesses I have would be either due to changes in youth sports (longer seasons, heightened pressure at younger age, poor mechanics or poor coaching being more prevalent) or possibly a result of the same argument Scotty was making in the Trout/Ruth thread about difference in competition, though that would only affect the ludicrous counting stats, not any injury issues. 

I'll throw a wild theory into the mix; something in the environment dramatically affected the population in the 70's/80's that's carried down genetically and weakened ligament strength. Like bald eagle eggs thinning due to DDTs. It's only shown up so far in younger people, specifically athletes, as the population hasn't aged enough to show how it would naturally degrade the average population. 

They ate more bananas back then.