Orange County Register: Analysis: Are the Angels wasting Mike Trout's prime?

[AngelsWin.com]

As the Angels prepare to begin spring training this week, they do so with a virtual clock ticking in the background. At least, that’s how many fans and impartial observers around the country view the franchise. They see a team that is letting its...

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[Amazing Larry]

The answer is yes. 

[eligrba]

FINALLY!!   A refreshingly new topic to discuss.

 

[greginpsca]

More BS

[Angels#1Fan]

Haven't I read this before?

[Docwaukee]

You guys should actually read the article.  

Nice job Fletch.  Good synopsis of where the halos stand and what they will look like next year.  

I like the Giants comp more than the cubs comp.  

The Cubs were able to do two things we aren't or weren't able to.  One, a big chunk of their current talent was as a result of their ability to trade away major league assets.  Two, they had a really strong international presence.  

Another thing to consider is that  the Trout window started without a ton of warning.  The dude burst into the game like a monster at age 20 in 2012 after Arte spent a quarter bil in the previous off season.  Looking up and down the franchise at that point, there was some talent to throw around, but we were at our lowest point ever in terms of international presence.  

I cannot stress how important our lack of international presence has been to the current state of our farm system.  We essentially ignored 30% of the available talent pool for about a 5 year period.  Imagine if a team decided to forfeit every third pick in the major league draft.  AND, we had money to do what the cubs and yankees did (among other teams).  That gave us a starting point so much lower than really any other major league team.  

Then, of course, Dipoto took a cheese grater to the nuts of the farm system over the next 5 years.  

But the Trout window didn't even start till most of our payroll flexibility was gone.  Hamilton was the obvious catastrophic misstep, but that was just one player and he was brought in after Trout's 20yo season.  So, effectively, by the time the Trout window opened, we had no available payroll and a the attempt to use the farm system to supplement the 'window' was a massive failure.  

The fact that we have an improving farm system, a marginally competitive club, and a huge chunk of payroll flexibility coming is actually pretty astounding relative to where we could be.  

That 2014 season also gave a false sense that the ship had been righted.  2015 was looking decently promising yet by the time the Hamilton melt down happened, it was really too late to do much else and then Jerry had his own melt down.  

The only real opportunity to really move the needle came last offseason when the FA market was supposedly chock full of top notch talent.  Would this team look a lot better for 2017 if we had Johnny Cueto or Yoenis Cespedes?  yes, but payroll would be through the roof with significant long term commitments to guys on the wrong side of 30 and what if we chose Heyward, Upton or Gordon?  or Zimmerman?  or Mike Leake or Wei-Yin Chen?  There were far more land mines than pots of gold in that field.  Much to my dismay at the time, they were prudent and dodged many bullets.  

Could they have done better this off season?  Obviously it's hard to know, but they weren't likely to woo Jansen or Chapman from the Sith Lords.  

Eppler and co had to make a choice.  When is the optimal time to take advantage of having Mike Trout?  I think it's clear what choice they have made.  

[tdawg87]

I'm excited to see what Claude has to say on this topic.

[WeatherWonk]

Boy, that's a lot to be replaced after the 2017 season. A closer, the main setup guy, a starting pitcher, THREE starting position players.

Given our farm, not much can be expected from there.

If Moreno is serious about winning, he will have to trade a major piece or sign several free agents.

Anyway, I'm fine with being in a holding pattern for 2017, till all that salary comes off the books. Well, I'm fine with it as long as Arte DOES something with that salary.

If this handshake agreement with Loria is true, then every franchise has been severely undervalued by Forbes. I hope Arte considers this in 2018........and when Trout's contract nears ending.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

The title of the article may be a little unfortunate, because it appears to pose a question with an obvious answer. The article itself is very insightful and well done. Our situation is compared to other teams who were in similar - or worse - situations, and were able to overcome them in the amount of time that we have left on Trout's contract. It's well worth the read.

[Ohtaniland]

22 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

I'm excited to see what Claude has to say on this topic.

I've never said we wasted anything on Trout. We did waste a lot of time and money on the Hamilton years which directly coincide with the Trout years. They wasted $125M in resources that could've been reallocated to build something better around Trout. That deal was 5 years at $25M per season. That's waste no matter how you slice it. At the time I thought that Russell Martin would've been a solid affordable pick up but we had the great Chris Iannetta. 

Yes we built teams around Trout with guys like Chris Iannetta. Of course we haven't wasted the Trout years, we haven't done much to help them either. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

31 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

I've never said we wasted anything on Trout. We did waste a lot of time and money on the Hamilton years which directly coincide with the Trout years. They wasted $125M in resources that could've been reallocated to build something better around Trout. That deal was 5 years at $25M per season. That's waste no matter how you slice it. At the time I thought that Russell Martin would've been a solid affordable pick up but we had the great Chris Iannetta. 

Yes we built teams around Trout with guys like Chris Iannetta. Of course we haven't wasted the Trout years, we haven't done much to help them either. 

The Hamilton's, Wilson's and Pujols's have not been the problem. You mention Iannetta and that's a symptom of the real problem, and that is the lack of a farm system. We tried plugging holes with money and trades, where as successful teams plug holes with quality draft picks and international signings.

[Docwaukee]

42 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

I never said we wasted anything on Trout. We did waste a lot of money on the Hamilton years which directly coincide with the Trout years. They wasted $125M in resources that could've been reallocated to build something better around Trout. The deal was 5 years at $25M per season. That's waste no matter how you slice it. At the time I thought that Russell Martin would've been a solid affordable pick up but we had the great Chris Iannetta. 

Yes we built teams around Trout with guys like Chris Iannetta. Of course we didn't waste the Trout years. 

so are you saying that we should have spent money to compensate for the lack of production from the Hamilton signing?  

the hamilton signing happened after Trout's 20yo season. 

This is an important question - What should they have done after signing Hamilton to take better advantage of the Trout window while still satisfying your criteria of not spending on big money free agents?  

Every single person associated with this franchise in whatever form would love to undo the Hamilton signing.  

I think part of Jeff's point is that we are in pretty solid shape to still take advantage of Trout being here AND the overall health of the franchise is on the upswing.  

[WeatherWonk]

2 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

The Hamilton's, Wilson's and Pujols's have not been the problem. You mention Iannetta and that's a symptom of the real problem, and that is the lack of a farm system. We tried plugging holes with money and trades, where as successful teams plug holes with quality draft picks and international signings.

Looking back on the last two WS victors, they went through a lot of really bad losing seasons to finally be able to plug holes with quality draft picks. We've been mediocre enough that it has prevented us from signing top 10 overall draft picks. Those are much more sure things than later rounds.

And those clubs still needed major trades (Cueto, Zobrist, M. Montgomery. A. Chapman) and FA signings (KMorales, Lester, Zobrist, D. Fowler, Lackey),  

It takes a pretty good mix. 

[Ohtaniland]

7 hours ago, Dochalo said:

so are you saying that we should have spent money to compensate for the lack of production from the Hamilton signing?  

the hamilton signing happened after Trout's 20yo season. 

This is an important question - What should they have done after signing Hamilton to take better advantage of the Trout window while still satisfying your criteria of not spending on big money free agents?  

Every single person associated with this franchise in whatever form would love to undo the Hamilton signing.  

I think part of Jeff's point is that we are in pretty solid shape to still take advantage of Trout being here AND the overall health of the franchise is on the upswing.  

Solid shape? We just acquired five players that have each been sent packing by at least 4 or 5 other teams. These players were acquired quite easily by the way so that's a red flag for me. We have no idea what we will get out of Richards or Skaggs this season and we have no idea what we will get out of Heaney or Trop next season. These guys are the starting core of our staff. Huston Street is not getting any younger. We have Pujols whose contract is getting progressively worse while he continues to fight nagging injuries and decline. We have no farm to speak of and our bullpen is very questionable and we are still paying for Hamilton. Espinosa has some pop but he's known to be a non clutch type player with a lifetime .210 average wRISP. 

Doc I respect your Angels passion but you base your prognostications on best case scenarios. IP described these acquisitions as "Stop Gap" players but we've been stop gapping for years. I'm not sure that it's smart to surround Trout with "Stop Gap" players if you want him to stay. 

My important question to you is how good is this team without Trout? 

Solid shape? We are a long way away from solid. The Cubs, Orioles, Indians are solid but I will be standing by for the 90 wins. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

10 hours ago, Dochalo said:

 I think part of Jeff's point is that we are in pretty solid shape to still take advantage of Trout being here AND the overall health of the franchise is on the upswing.  

There were really 2 points....

1. The Angels have not been that bad in his first five years. 

2. They still have at least four more, which is a long time in baseball. They have the time and the money to get better (if they make wise decisions) before his contract expires. 

That "if" makes it far from a certainty. But the point is a lot can happen in four years. 

[Stradling]

2 hours ago, CALZONE said:

Solid shape? We just acquired five players that have each been sent packing by at least 4 or 5 other teams. These players were acquired quite easily by the way so that's a red flag for me. We have no idea what we will get out of Richards or Skaggs this season and we have no idea what we will get out of Heaney or Trop next season. These guys are the starting core of our staff. Huston Street is not getting any younger. We have Pujols whose contract is getting progressively worse while he continues to fight nagging injuries and decline. We have no farm to speak of and our bullpen is very questionable and we are still paying for Hamilton. Espinosa has some pop but he's known to be a non clutch type player with a lifetime .210 average wRISP. 

Doc I respect your Angels passion but you base your prognostications on best case scenarios. IP described these acquisitions as "Stop Gap" players but we've been stop gapping for years. I'm not sure that it's smart to surround Trout with "Stop Gap" players if you want him to stay. 

My important question to you is how good is this team without Trout? 

Solid shape? We are a long way away from solid. The Cubs, Orioles, Indians are solid but I will be standing by for the 90 wins. 

With all due respect Claude what in the fuck do you expect the team to do?  How do you surround Trout, right now, with major league players?  How do you create talent out of nowhere?  What non stop gap players were acquired this off season by other teams that you would have approved of?  When you have a budget (oh and you personally love budgets) how do you acquire young talent that has less question marks than the choices the team made this offseason?  Now I know there is literally zero percent chance you'll answers these questions because that's not what you do.  You complain, that's your fandom, you aren't a solution guy, just the guy that complains about what's been done.  

[tdawg87]

Tbf I brought him into this for the lolz so take it easy on him.

 

[Ohtaniland]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

Tbf I brought him into this for the lolz so take it easy on him.

 

It's all good tdawg. I love reading all of the primers, preseason predictions and propaganda. Some of this stuff looks more like a sales pitch than reality. I really can't wait to see which smiley faces the marketing department will decide to plaster at the front entrance of the stadium. At the end of the day baseball is just entertainment and we didn't make the front cover of Sports Illustrated so we must have a chance.

#notmadatstradling