Jered Weaver: "I am definitely NOT retiring."

[Inside Pitch]

7 hours ago, Oz27 said:

Isn't it funny how bad baseball players so often get a reputation as a leader or a good clubhouse guy? Pretty often it comes from people thinking there has to be some explanation for a player still being around, other than total stupidity.

This was true of Disar, not so much Weaver.  His decline was sudden but he wasn't a bad player long enough for this sort of thing to apply to him.  At the same time, I don't really recall him being labeled a leader.

[totdprods]

9 hours ago, AngelArcher said:

It's really weird that some are okay with bringing Weaver back no less actually advocating it. If watching him suck wasn't enough, the stats and metrics say he's one of the WORSE pitchers in the league. If the goal is to repeat 2016 then by all means....

I'm not really advocating bringing Weaver back, just trying to argue for the small shred of value he could still offer. 
The rotation needs stability in a bad, bad way for one year only in 2017 - it doesn't necessarily need good stability - it just needs stability.  And really, we just need it for one year. By 2018, between Richards, Skaggs, Shoemaker, Meyer, possibly Nolasco (has an option), Heaney, Tropeano, Smith, and Banuelos, there should be sufficient experience, health, and stability.

So how do address stabilizing the rotation for one year? 

• Trade prospects for a SP
  Trade 2-3 prospects for a good SP. I mean, really, which prospects could we afford to trade? 
• Trade a vet for a SP
  Pull a trade akin to Morales for Vargas or Cabrera for Garland. Yunel is pretty much the only vet we could move. I would definitely be for this, as I'd be happy with Marte at 3B, or pursuing one of the many FA 3Bs, but what type of MLB SP do you think Yunel would bring back? You could try and trade Cron, Calhoun, or Simmons for an impact SP, but dealing either of those opens up quite a hole as well, which would need to be addressed also at great cost, except maybe a Cron replacement.
• Sign a 'good' FA SP to a multi-year deal, $12-18m+ and 3-5 years:
  Eats up a lot of that salary we just cleared, and really the only good names out there are guys like Ivan Nova (4.30 career ERA) and Jeremy Hellickson (4.48 ERA the last four seasons, plus a draft pick) - either would be a big boost for 2017, but with their track records, do you really either clogging up a rotation spot for a few more years, especially with so many guys in-house who could be better, and cheaper, in 2018 and beyond? 
• Take a one-year flyer on an injury risk SP:
  Brett Anderson? CJ Wilson? Doesn't really address stability, tired of paying guys to not pitch. We have enough injured pitchers. Also, see Lincecum, Tim.
• Sign an old, durable vet - $8m-10m and 1-2 years:
  This would be guys like RA Dickey, Bartolo Colon, Colby Lewis, Jorge De La Rosa, Jake Peavy, and Jered Weaver. With the injury issues the Mets and Rangers have had, I imagine Colon and Lewis are likely to stay put. With the FA SP market so thin, guys like Peavy and Dickey may seek, and get, two-year deals, or at least an option. That brings us back to the notion of blocking a 2018 rotation spot. What's worse, Jered Weaver at 1/$5m (high as I'll go) or RA Dickey/Jake Peavy for 2/$20m?
• Sign Jhoulys Chacin to a 1-2 year deal.
  He's a unique case I think, he doesn't really fit the mold of any of the other SP groupings, and he is actually who I would prefer to sign over Weaver. I don't think he's going to get a multi-year offer - I may be wrong - and I think he is happy in Anaheim after bouncing around so much. He'd be ideal as a starter early in the season to eat innings, and pitched really well out of the pen, so when someone pushes him from that, he'd transition over nicely.
• Stand pat, go with what we already have, maybe add another minor-league SP
  Yes, it's super cheap and gives everyone opportunity, but I think we'll have plenty of that to offer still in 2017. It doesn't really deliver the stability that is needed though. Rookies don't typically go 20+ starts and 150+ IP in their first year - the ones that do don't often come cheap. And unless we plan on pulling every young SP who struggles two or three starts to give another guy a chance, no one will really get enough reps in.

Among those choices, that's where I see Weaver offering some value. He is not my first, second, or even third choice. He sucks, but so do a lot of those other guys, and it'll be a lot cheaper paying Weaver to suck for one year, a year he likely won't finish, than paying Jake Peavy to suck for two or Brett Anderson to sit on the DL. Weaver costs no prospects, keeps the '18 rotation open, and he's probably not going to need Tommy John next year. His last month's peripherals were a marked difference too. Maybe it was luck, maybe he found something. Kazmir and Colon were both terrible too.

2016 wasn't a disaster because of Jered Weaver, 2016 was a disaster because we needed fifteen different starting pitchers, and only three of those made it past 20 starts. Ricky Nolasco is literally the only guy we can bank on making 30 starts next year.

2016: 15 SPs, only 3 with 20+ starts (Chacin with 17)
2015: 9 SPs, 5 with 20+ starts (and one with 18)
2014: 8 SPs, 5 with 20+ starts, and again one with 18
2013: 11 SPs, 5 with 20+ starts (Richards with 17)
2012: 8 SPs, 4 with 30+ starts

I can see 2017 for Weaver being like Wally Joyner's 2001. Bring him in, let him get through April and May while the youngsters get on their feet and Richards, Skaggs, Meyer, and Shoe prove they're healthy, then bump him for whichever minor leaguer SP is deserving a shot. He can then announce his retirement, have a teary-eyed pres conference, and they can have one more Weaver start at home with a proper send-off as opposed to this weird, stilted 2016 ending where he was in denial and the Angels didn't want to force the issue. 

[mtangelsfan]

5 hours ago, ukyah said:

to your first point, i'm not way off. i have a lot of experience with this. i never said a formerly good player shouldn't be respected. the fact is that leadership is shown by achieving positive results. a rah rah guy who can't get off the bench is a nobody, even if he has 500 homeruns. however, if he can get his 500 homeruns off the bench and produce as a pinch hitter, then he'll carry some weight in the clubhouse. otherwise, he's just a has been. i'm not writing those rules, that's just human nature.

second point, i never said anything about being a jerk. 

people respond to those who show they can get the job done, those who walk the walk. people don't respond to those who can only talk a good game. end of story.

Jered Weaver will never be a nobody and he achieved positive results for this organization for a decade.  I think that gives him plenty of gravitas.

[AngelArcher]

totdprods, if Weaver isn't even your 3rd option then stop bringing him up. 

 

[19HALO71]

Give him 1 year plus a team option on a second year. I would have no problem with him as a #5 starter. Or, have him as the 6th or 7th inning guy to come in following someone throwing 90+. He would be good for 3 outs with his 62 mile an hour change up. That would be a near 30 mile an hour speed change for 3 batters.

Go Halos!!!

[arch stanton]

Just out of curiosity, what makes anyone think Weaver would agree to a team option for the second year? It would be monumentally stupid

[19HALO71]

I thought it was all a negotiation process. They offer it, he declines it and they make a new offer. rinse, wash then repeat. That is how you find out what the individual wants and what the market will bare.

Go Halos!!!

[Troll Daddy]

Weaver is more of a last resort type option. Like totsprods said ... more of a filler to take the team into 2018.

Personally, I wouldn't throw away a season waiting on Heaney or Tropeano. I hope Eppler is scouring the planet for a front rotation pitcher in the off season. 

The team had a very encouraging record in september against our own division. You add a front rotation pitcher and another legit MOTO bat ... and we're in business. Angels have the resources to get it done. 

Winning Matters

 

[arch stanton]

What he'll be looking for this off season is starters that are capable of pitching at this level who still have minor league options available. If keeps him from playing the DFA game all year long.

[Troll Daddy]

6 minutes ago, arch stanton said:

What he'll be looking for this off season is starters that are capable of pitching at this level who still have minor league options available. If keeps him from playing the DFA game all year long.

That's a possibility ... it's worked out well for the A's.

[totdprods]

2 hours ago, AngelArcher said:

totdprods, if Weaver isn't even your 3rd option then stop bringing him up. 

It's a Weaver thread.

I'm trying to contribute something besides a black and white 'good vs. bad' conversation, because where is the fun in that? There are always more variables at play. If you want to limit yourself to something narrow go start a friggin' poll.

 

 

[Blarg]

When all is said and done,  Weaver doesn't choose if he is retired from playing on the professional level. 

[totdprods]

I like the idea of bringing in Nova because he's had TJ recently and hopefully isn't at risk for awhile. He's an extreme ground-baller, and I'm fine with him occupying a rotation slot for a couple years, because we will have Simmons here during that time as well. I think that bodes well. Nova also turned things around under Ray Searage, who did similar work with JA Happ, Liriano, Volquez. They maintained success after their time in Pittsburgh.

Weaver is my first choice if we decide to fill the rotation's stability need from the pool of one-year injury rebound guys (Wilson, Anderson) and old 1-2 yr vet flyer guys (Peavy, Dickey) and if we decide to stand pat. Colon would actually be my first choice, but he's a fan favorite in NY  now and their rotation is worse off than ours. He isn't going anywhere. I see no harm in going cheap and sleeping with the devil we know under those circumstances. I'd rather not pay more to see Dickey or Peavy do the same thing Weaver could do, or CJ Wilson to sit on the DL another year.

I do think Eppler should, and will, bring in another MILB SP or two, but I see those guys just adding to the pool of lotto ticket depth. They shouldn't deter us from acquiring stability.

[Troll Daddy]

The harm of going cheap is realized in 2016. When you're a team who's payroll is in the top ten of baseball and you have Mike Trout ... you better make the playoffs. 

Flushing another season isn't a option ... otherwise trade Mike Trout and be done with it. You don't put your tail between your legs and run because you had a shit season and hide for a year or two/three. 

 

[Stradling]

3 hours ago, Troll Daddy said:

Weaver is more of a last resort type option. Like totsprods said ... more of a filler to take the team into 2018.

Personally, I wouldn't throw away a season waiting on Heaney or Tropeano. I hope Eppler is scouring the planet for a front rotation pitcher in the off season. 

The team had a very encouraging record in september against our own division. You add a front rotation pitcher and another legit MOTO bat ... and we're in business. Angels have the resources to get it done. 

Winning Matters

 

I would love to add a front of the rotation starter, but none are available in free agency and we don't have the players or prospects to get one, unless you trade Calhoun.  I'm not saying we won't have the players, but perhaps a couple of our recent draft picks will have great 2017 seasons which increases their value going forward.  But as of now they are not rated high enough so we would have to give up too many to land a solid starter. 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

If we bring back Weaver and Chacin we would have 7 possible starters next season.

1. Richards
2. Skaggs
3. Nolasco
4. Shoemaker
5. Meyer
6. Weaver
7. Chacin

What we need is a LFer.

 

[totdprods]

5 minutes ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

If we bring back Weaver and Chacin we would have 7 possible starters next season.

1. Richards
2. Skaggs
3. Nolasco
4. Shoemaker
5. Meyer
6. Weaver
7. Chacin

What we need is a LFer.

 

If everyone survives ST and is pitching well, Chacin takes Rasmus' spot in the pen and Weaver gets cut. More than likely though one of those guys doesn't start the season in the rotation, and that's where Weaver would slot in. Banuelos, Smith, Wright, and Scribs form the SLC rotation. Oberholtzer to pen or SLC, if he makes it that far.

We do need a LF. 

[Troll Daddy]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

I would love to add a front of the rotation starter, but none are available in free agency and we don't have the players or prospects to get one, unless you trade Calhoun.  I'm not saying we won't have the players, but perhaps a couple of our recent draft picks will have great 2017 seasons which increases their value going forward.  But as of now they are not rated high enough so we would have to give up too many to land a solid starter. 

I'm not advocating a #1 starter ... unless something comes available. Something established may come up internationally or possibly a salary dump from a non-contending team. Maybe you trade Cron/Escobar etc.  My point is that you never know what's available until the off season gets under way. 

This is Eppler's job to figure out. Trout wants a frickin ring! 

[Angel Oracle]

Chacin was definitely not Chachi down the stretch.  27 innings, 25 K's, 1.33 ERA

Would be good if he can take that into 2017.

[vlad27]

I'd like to see him back next season - he's 34 not time to retire - maybe and hopefully he realizes it's not gonna be a big contract . With so many question marks with our starting pitching why not bring him back as long as the money works 

[ten ocho recon scout]

On 10/5/2016 at 5:21 AM, Inside Pitch said:

This was true of Disar, not so much Weaver.  His decline was sudden but he wasn't a bad player long enough for this sort of thing to apply to him.  At the same time, I don't really recall him being labeled a leader.

A lot of it depends on the team itself. Meaning roster, not organization. Erstad for example was considered the bus driver, with percival in the pen. Those same two guys would likely be shut out of say oakland or a boston type clubhouse.

That all is fluid with new faces, obviously. But one groups percepcion of a guy will vary from the other group. I would almost argue the angels of the last few years dont really have an identity. You had a youth movement, but at the same time old salty vets that had their say. Plus an old school manager, and an organization fighting itself between old and new school on the field and in the front office.

One thing i think we outsiders never see (or will) are the discussions about character. So we fawn over numbers (rightly so) while the decision makers and players say "F that guy, we hate him, dont bring him here" or "yeah, hes a solid dude (who bats .240), hed fit in here." And while we can argue thats obviously stupid, we have to compare it to our own jobs, where no matter how sound your coworker might be, if hes a prick, everyone is miserable.

[Angel Oracle]

I could see him going to SD on a one year deal, being an even bigger pitchers' park, granted more HRs seemingly were hit at Petco in 2016 then anyone could have expected.

[Ohtaniland]

On 10/1/2016 at 4:02 PM, disarcina said:

he can help some team next year -- long past the ace of the rotation status guy to be sure -- but still has shown in the second half here that he can be a serviceable starter for some team.......I think he'd be a good 4th/ 5th rotation guy for the Halos.........sign him to a one year incentive laden contact with a club option and buy clause for a plus one option year.

one plus one club option - incentive laded re Games Started, Games Pitched, IP -- I mean are the Halos going to be big contenders in 2017? 

I believe he can help us next season......

 

 

 

if he signs with Texas

[Docwaukee]

The more positive reports I see from Richards recovery, the more I tend to agree with TD.  

Him being healthy is really the only chance we have to compete.  I am not saying he makes all the difference by himself, but if he is healthy or at least possibly healthy, it gives you the opportunity to take a much different approach this offseason.  Maybe you spend some of the money that was freed up on the pen, LF and 2b.  Maybe you consider moving some minor league talent for a pitcher (Not sure I'd like to see that though).  Maybe you sign a couple of starter to a 1yr deal.  Any way you slice it, I just don't see how Weaver fits into any scenario for next year.  He had his opportunities this year to prove he was capable and it showed he was one of baseball's worst starting pitchers.  Chacin, Wilson, Rasmus, Nolasco, Skaggs, Meyer, Shoe, Richards are all better than Weaver at this point.  You are better off working the scrap heap in the hopes that one of 3 or 4 random pickups could turn into something at a cost of league minimum than paying anything more than that for Weaver.  

In a small sample, the Angels starter were middle of the pack in September.  While that includes performances by Nolasco and Chacin that aren't reproducible going forward, it also include only one start from Shoe, 5 starts from Daniel Wright, a start from Oberholtzer, and 5 starts from Weaver (in which he was better than he'd been any other time during the year).  If you add Richards and Shoe to that mix, it evens out the aberrations and gives you a mediocre rotation overall.  I would rather see us give 1 or 2 yr deals to the likes of Rich Hill, or Dickey.  Or perhaps consider Nova.  Other options include Edison Volquez, and Doug Fister or a flier on Jarrod Parker. Cashner is interesting because his stock has dropped considerably.   He was awful last year.  Maybe he takes a 1yr deal to regain his value or maybe he accepts at 3yr deal for about 25-30 mil.  

I think there are going to be better options than Weaver.  Right now, he's way down on my possibles chart.  

[totdprods]

I don't think I'd go after Rich Hill. It's amazing what he is doing, but he will be 37 next year and he barely made it through 100 IP this year. I would sacrifice some quality in return for added durability. Richards and Meyer already fit the bill of top of the rotation stuff with health concerns, adding a third would put a lot of strain elsewhere. Look at how much Nolasco helped the rotation stabilize in the last two months of the year - and he wound up pitching better as well. Someone who can just eat up innings and likely not blow their arm apart would be a huge addition to the staff.