Cowart

[Angels#1Fan]

2 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Yunel is quite possible the worst .300 hitter in the major leagues.

Cowart is hitting .194 with a .203 obp..is he the worst .194 hitter in the major leagues?

[Angels#1Fan]

3 hours ago, Oz27 said:

 

2 hours ago, Oz27 said:

Careful, a certain illogical poster will accuse you of being "stupid" as he did with me earlier in this thread.

Judging a young player off 70-something at-bats is the definition of stupid.

You're the one that first uttered the "stupid" word.

Not this "illogical" poster. lol

[Oz27]

14 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

You're the one that first uttered the "stupid" word.

Not this "illogical" poster. lol

Uhh, that's not true. And I wasn't talking about you. But, whatever.

[Oz27]

56 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Well, if the shoe fits ...

Another brilliant insight. This board is such a better place for your presence, Troll Daddy. I, like everyone else, am so grateful to you for your insightful offerings.

[Angels#1Fan]

Just now, Oz27 said:

Uhh, that's not true. And I wasn't talking about you. But, whatever.

Sure you did and I quoted it just for you. 

[Oz27]

1 hour ago, Lou said:

true, Oz, but at some point a young player has to come up and show that he can succeed at the big league level in limited playing time. Positions aren't normally just handed to guys. He hasn't just failed, he's failed miserably.

He has 68 plate appearances since he was called up on August 21, well over a month ago now. His results obviously haven't been great, but to just leave him to rot on the bench while we constantly run out someone like Pennington when we are playing meaningless games makes no sense. Good players have terrible 68 plate appearance sample sizes all the time, especially if they only get to play sporadically. I'm not saying Cowart *is* a good player, just that there isn't even close to enough evidence to determine that and we sure as hell shouldn't be giving up on him or leaving him to sit on the bench.

[Angels#1Fan]

4 hours ago, Oz27 said:

Judging a young player off 70-something at-bats is the definition of stupid.

 

[Oz27]

2 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

Sure you did and I quoted it just for you. 

I was referring to a post from Blarg earlier in this thread but believe whatever makes you feel good, I guess.

[Angels#1Fan]

Just now, Oz27 said:

I was referring to a post from Blarg earlier in this thread but believe whatever makes you feel good, I guess.

It's not a matter of what makes me feel good.

You've been bitching about Cowart not getting enough at bats and I pointed out that including tonight that there was about 24 more AB's left in the season and I asked you what you were going to find out that you didn't see the first 72 times.

It's my opinion that Cowart hit his way out of getting more at bats but that seems illogical to you..whatever. lol

[Oz27]

1 minute ago, Angels#1Fan said:

It's not a matter of what makes me feel good.

You've been bitching about Cowart not getting enough at bats and I pointed out that including tonight that there was about 24 more AB's left in the season and I asked you what you were going to find out that you didn't see the first 72 times.

It's my opinion that Cowart hit his way out of getting more at bats but that seems illogical to you..whatever. lol

Yes, I think judging players off such a small sample size is silly. He is a young player who would benefit from more playing time. Also, as a statement of the obvious, a larger sample size does help to make a judgement of a player ... even if it isn't THAT much larger it's better than nothing. But either way, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[Angels#1Fan]

Cowart will likely get another chance next year but he'll have to show something better. Escobar's contract is up after 2016 and the club has an option year for 2017 on him. I expect the Angels to pick up that option but they'll be looking for a replacement and that will be Cowart's opportunity. If he can't deliver I expect him to be gone. I would like to see him make it but he has to show he can hit major league pitching which he has yet to do.

[Docwaukee]

They have clearly made up their mind about him.  They're the baseball experts and no player has ever started their career struggling over 126 sporadic plate appearances spanning 2 seasons while performing solidly in the minors.  

Even if you think you know, don't you want to make sure that you are right?  

There are plenty of players across baseball, seasoned vets even, that would struggle getting 19 PA over a 3 week span.  

But how could they be wrong?  He is what he is right?  

Put the kid in the best position to succeed.  If he doesn't then you are no worse for wear.  I mean honestly at this point, if he sucks and the team loses more games that it could because of him, so what.  

They're 7-3 over their last ten games.  Does anyone really care?  Is is going to mean two shits if we win a bunch of games at the end of a lost season and end up with less than 90 losses?  

If they think so, then I guess I have no argument and clearly they do.  I am sure the fans will flock to see the team coming off a 73 win season next year because Gregorio Petit and Cliff Pennington helped them win those 2 or 3 extra games.  

[Angelsjunky]

Here's the definition of stupid: Nick Buss has more PA than Kaleb Cowart.

I don't get it.

I know one player who sucked in his first 40 games, hitting only .220 with a .281 OBP. I'm sure glad that the Angels didn't give up on him.

I know, I know. That other player was just 20 years old and one of the top prospects in baseball and Cowart is 24 years old and considered a failed prospect who might be limping his way to a bench career. But given that the Angels are 17 games under .500, there really is no justifiable reason not to give Cowart every possible start and at-bat.

The only thing I can think of is that they've already decided he's going to the AFL, so they feel like there's no rush. I guess.

[Oz27]

I fully agree with both of you. We know Buss is a AAA player but we are giving him playing time. We have overwhelming evidence that Cliff Pennington can't hit MLB pitching but we keep running him out there. Meanwhile, Cowart rots on the bench. I know I'm in the minority in thinking Cowart could be something useful and there is every chance I am wrong and he will never be a good enough hitter to make him worthy of MLB playing time. But for us not to be giving him a chance now, in meaningless games, coming off a moderately encouraging AAA season and at a time where his competition at 2B is terrible, defies any logic.

We have given Cliff Pennington 165 ABs this year and a heap in September, to produce exactly what would have been expected ...not very much. A 32-year-old who probably gets DFA'd before Opening Day is being given more of a chance than a 24-year-old with exceptional defensive talent who has also shown at times he can hit. Some people might think that's wise, but I would like some of what they are smoking.

[totdprods]

There are just too many variables and subtleties at work here for us to really know what's up. Coaching staff may have pulled him aside and told him he needs to work on pitch recognition and working the count and they're going over that in BP and the cages. To gauge his progress, they're cutting back his at-bats. It may be beneficial to his development if all he has to focus on is an at-bat late in a game when his task is to simply show increased patience and recognition, rather than do four times a game everyday.

It's easy for fans to judge a player off a live game and a stat line, but coaches and players are the only ones who really know what all is entailed here. 

We're effectively in spring training. For all we know, coaches and FO may feel Cowart is ready with the glove as a UT IF job right now, and that his bat is even closer than we are giving him credit for, and they're tasking him with very small things in repetition to accomplish in an at-bat (take all sliders, only swing low and away, try to see 5 pitches, whatever) that he's working on that we are unaware of. Pennington and Petit may be getting playing time because they are vets, we know their ceiling and floor already so there's not much they're learning in live-game action or training in the cages, and the FO is trying to decide if either Petit or Pennington is worth keeping next season.

[Troll Daddy]

10 hours ago, Oz27 said:

Another brilliant insight. This board is such a better place for your presence, Troll Daddy. I, like everyone else, am so grateful to you for your insightful offerings.

So the shoe does fit. You must be about a size 6.

[Angel Oracle]

A lot of good points are made here.   I can see trying to grow Cowart's hitting confidence through batting drills, although it would be nice to eventually see him put them into actual game conditions.    It must mean that he has a ways to go, before doing that, and that's why he isn't playing much.

[totdprods]

We're going to face a big time roster crunch in about a month when all of our 60-day DL guys have to be added to the 40-man, and with Cowart's youth, control, versatility, and potential, he may even already be more valuable to the club than Pennington or Petit, and they're getting playing time now to determine which of them they prioritize keeping this offseason.

[ksangel]

2 hours ago, totdprods said:

There are just too many variables and subtleties at work here for us to really know what's up. Coaching staff may have pulled him aside and told him he needs to work on pitch recognition and working the count and they're going over that in BP and the cages. To gauge his progress, they're cutting back his at-bats. It may be beneficial to his development if all he has to focus on is an at-bat late in a game when his task is to simply show increased patience and recognition, rather than do four times a game everyday.

It's easy for fans to judge a player off a live game and a stat line, but coaches and players are the only ones who really know what all is entailed here. 

We're effectively in spring training. For all we know, coaches and FO may feel Cowart is ready with the glove as a UT IF job right now, and that his bat is even closer than we are giving him credit for, and they're tasking him with very small things in repetition to accomplish in an at-bat (take all sliders, only swing low and away, try to see 5 pitches, whatever) that he's working on that we are unaware of. Pennington and Petit may be getting playing time because they are vets, we know their ceiling and floor already so there's not much they're learning in live-game action or training in the cages, and the FO is trying to decide if either Petit or Pennington is worth keeping next season.

Really good post...you're right that there is more going on then we know and the Angels will tell. 

Agree with others that it makes no sense considering other losing teams stick with young players who struggle.

Seems the Angels are dead set on winning every game at the expense of giving Cowart a chance to learn by failing. 

[Angelsjunky]

I think totdprods makes some excellent points - we really don't know the "inside story," or how the Angels are consciously guiding his development in subtle ways. On the other hand, it could be as simple as he didn't pass the Scioscia Test, which we've seen before.

Oz27, I agree with you that Cowart could still be a good player, an above average regular third baseman. I like the idea of him playing 2B, but to be honest I'd rather he be a Gold Glove third baseman than merely a good second baseman.

Anyhow, I don't see why he can't manage at least a .250/.300/.420 line with 15 HR, with some seasoning. With that line, and Gold Glove defense at third base, he's a 3 WAR player. But we're probably going to need to go through a season or two of .220/.280/.350 to get there...and if so, now's the time to do it.

[totdprods]

Maybe they actually have decided they don't like him at second, or that playing out of position is affecting his focus at the plate, but now you're talking Cowart taking at-bats from Escobar instead of Petit/Pennington. You're not going to see a vet's manager bench a vet hitting .300+ for three weeks just to audition a fringe prospect.

[Angel Oracle]

totdprods makes a good point.   Cowart did make a couple of errors at 2B earlier this month.

His range and arm are better served at 3B.

[Troll Daddy]

3 hours ago, hangin n wangin said:

Cowart not getting consistent at bats in a season like this is why Mike Scioscia can be an absolute stubborn idiot sometimes.

Buss? Pennington? You have got to be fucking joking me. I don't care if Cowart hits .004. Let the guy play.

Look at the Twins running out Berrios and Buxton. We should be doing the same.

You should care if Cowart hits .004

I don't see the point in him getting playing time at second base. Pennington or Petit our the best in house options right now. Like it or not ... Escobar is our third baseman next season unless of course he's traded. If a trade happens there's still a good chance he doesn't get the starting job over Marte. 

 

[Angel Oracle]

There's also a component of this.    If Cowart can't get it done up here, then the 2010 draft is a total FAIL, outside of Calhoun and Bedrosian.   And that's bad, given having 5 picks in the top 40, of which Calhoun wasn't even one of them.   That helped to set the org back, and explains partly why Bane got the boot, although it's been said that J. Pierpont Reagins may have had a far too big influence on those 5 top 40 picks.

[NrM]

Cowart should've made the switch to pitcher imo. I doubt he'll ever have a good enough bat to go with his great defense.