Gameday Thread: Angels @ Blue Jays 8/24 4:07

[Oz27]

Just now, Angels#1Fan said:

That WAR stuff doesn't account for the fact that he's the best lead off hitter we've had in years.

It's not overrating him as you suggest..it's a fact!

Uhh, WAR accounts for everything. It's a fact.

[Angels#1Fan]

Just now, Oz27 said:

Uhh, WAR accounts for everything. It's a fact.

You've ignored my point which doesn't surprise me at all.

WAR isn't the end all be all in evaluating a players worth but you can stick to it if you wish.

Does your WAR stat say Escobar hasn't been the best lead off hitter the Angels have had in years?

[Oz27]

7 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

You've ignored my point which doesn't surprise me at all.

WAR isn't the end all be all in evaluating a players worth but you can stick to it if you wish.

Does your WAR stat say Escobar hasn't been the best lead off hitter the Angels have had in years?

WAR evaluates how valuable he is as a player. It says he's an above replacement but below average player who, like I said, is massively overrated here.

Also, Calhoun was our leadoff hitter in 2014 and was significantly better by any useful metric than Escobar has been this year. So maybe instead of being snarky, try checking your facts.

[Stradling]

He doesn't run well and has pretty poor baserunning instincts.  

[Angels#1Fan]

9 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

WAR evaluates how valuable he is as a player. It says he's an above replacement but below average player who, like I said, is massively overrated here.

Also, Calhoun was our leadoff hitter in 2014 and was significantly better by any useful metric than Escobar has been this year. So maybe instead of being snarky, try checking your facts.

Kole hit .272 for the Angels in 2014. His OBP was .325 and he slugged .406

Escobar is hitting .320 with an OBP of .368 and is slugging .402 leading off for the Angels.

Your advanced metrics seems to have missed that.

[Angels#1Fan]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

He doesn't run well and has pretty poor baserunning instincts.  

He's not great that's for sure but he's the best since Figgins!

[Stradling]

Yes, again, he has one skill set, he hits.  

[mulwin444]

I think the disconnect here is one is advocating Escobar the hitter versus others recognizing Escobar the overall player's deficiencies.  I don't think anyone can argue he's not a good hitter but he sucks at baserunning and fielding hence the difference in determining a value based on avg/obp/ops vs WAR.

[Oz27]

13 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

Kole hit .272 for the Angels in 2014. His OBP was .325 and he slugged .406

Escobar is hitting .320 with an OBP of .368 and is slugging .402 leading off for the Angels.

Your advanced metrics seems to have missed that.

Calhoun slugged .450 that year. So he was better by OPS, OPS+ and WAR. Try again?

[Angels#1Fan]

My fault I posted Koles 2016 slugging percentage.

Using WAR to determine Escobar's value as a lead off hitter is weak sauce bro.

Besides you'd find something negative to post regardless..that's what you do.

I asked you if your WAR stat could prove that Escobar wasn't the best lead off hitter the Angels have had since Figgins and all I got was crickets!!!! Escobar out hit Kole, Escobar had a better OBP than Kole. Kole out slugged him which is no surprise.

You seem to think I'm trying to make a case that Escobar is great. I'm not making that point at all. What I'm saying is that Cowart hasn't proved he can hit ML pitching and giving an unproven player the third base job removes Escobar as the leadoff hitter because he doesn't really have another position to play. Can he play LF? The other point I was making is that the minor leagues are full of good defensive players that can't hit ML pitching and so far Cowart falls into that category. Escorbar doesn't! Does WAR say anything about that?

[Billy_Ball]

Three hit game for Mike Napoli Jett Bandy.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

24 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

Kole hit .272 for the Angels in 2014. His OBP was .325 and he slugged .406

Escobar is hitting .320 with an OBP of .368 and is slugging .402 leading off for the Angels.

Your advanced metrics seems to have missed that.

In 2014 Kole scored 90 runs, Escobar won't come close to that many runs scored. At the end of the day it's about the runs that cross the plate that is most important.

[Angels#1Fan]

Back to the game.

Hope Shoe doesn't have a heart attack with a 6 run lead.

[eligrba4ever]

Cliche No. 425 tonight for Gubi: "Bandy on the Run." Followup hit to "Bandyman Can."

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

My fault I posted Koles 2016 slugging percentage.

Using WAR to determine Escobar's value as a lead off hitter is weak sauce bro.

Besides you'd find something negative to post regardless..that's what you do.

I asked you if your WAR stat could prove that Escobar wasn't the best lead off hitter the Angels have had since Figgins and all I got was crickets!!!! Escobar out hit Kole, Escobar had a better OBP than Kole. Kole out slugged him which is no surprise.

You seem to think I'm trying to make a case that Escobar is great. I'm not making that point at all. What I'm saying is that Cowart hasn't proved he can hit ML pitching and giving an unproven player the third base job removes Escobar as the leadoff hitter because he doesn't really have another position to play. Can he play LF? The other point I was making is that the minor leagues are full of good defensive players that can't hit ML pitching and so far Cowart falls into that category. Escorbar doesn't! Does WAR say anything about that?

Two things, one Cowart's glove will win as many games as Escobar's bat.  Second, no one is saying take Escobar out of the line up.  We are saying play him in left field and some are saying 2nd base.  As far as can he play left field, well Choi and Petit had never played the outfield before this season started.  

[Dick B Back]

Who ARE these imposters?

[Oz27]

9 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

My fault I posted Koles 2016 slugging percentage.

Using WAR to determine Escobar's value as a lead off hitter is weak sauce bro.

Besides you'd find something negative to post regardless..that's what you do.

I asked you if your WAR stat could prove that Escobar wasn't the best lead off hitter the Angels have had since Figgins and all I got was crickets!!!! Escobar out hit Kole, Escobar had a better OBP than Kole. Kole out slugged him which is no surprise.

You seem to think I'm trying to make a case that Escobar is great. I'm not making that point at all. What I'm saying is that Cowart hasn't proved he can hit ML pitching and giving an unproven player the third base job removes Escobar as the leadoff hitter because he doesn't really have another position to play. Can he play LF? The other point I was making is that the minor leagues are full of good defensive players that can't hit ML pitching and so far Cowart falls into that category. Escorbar doesn't! Does WAR say anything about that?

Hahahaha holy crap, this is too funny. You asked if WAR could show that Calhoun 2014 was a better leadoff hitter than Escobar this year. That's not what WAR is really, but it shows Calhoun was a better player then. But OPS, OPS + and wRC+ show Calhoun 2014 was a better hitter than Escobar 2016. Your "best leadoff hitter in years" claim is simply untrue and instead of admitting that, you went on a ridiculous rant that makes no sense. Escobar hits well but is a below average player overall. He also isn't as good a hitter as Calhoun was in 2014. All pretty simple.

[Angels#1Fan]

13 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Two things, one Cowart's glove will win as many games as Escobar's bat.  Second, no one is saying take Escobar out of the line up.  We are saying play him in left field and some are saying 2nd base.  As far as can he play left field, well Choi and Petit had never played the outfield before this season started.  

Cowart has hit .186 thus far in his 2 seasons of MLB (granted small sample) and he's hitting .214 this year. How long are you willing to let a guy play every day that hits that bad? That's no better than Matt Joyce did and everyone hates him. lol  

OK, I agree Cowart has "potential", but that and the proverbial $.010 won't buy a cup of coffee. People are acting like he's Mike Schmidt or something. lol

That's what I'm saying. 

EDIT: a bird in the hand is worth two Cowarts.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Angels#1Fan said:

Cowart has hit .186 thus far in his 2 seasons of MLB (granted small sample) and he's hitting .214 this year. How long are you willing to let a guy play every day that hits that bad? That's no better than Matt Joyce did and everyone hates him. lol  

OK, I agree Cowart has "potential", but that and the proverbial $.010 won't buy a cup of coffee.

That's what I'm saying. 

Everyday the rest of the season.  

[Troll Daddy]

Cowart winning as many games with his glove as Escobar with his bat ... why not just say he'll win you more games?

I'm not about to argue that Cowart isn't a better defender but he has 8 errors in only 65 games at third base in AAA. 

 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

18 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

Escobar out hit Kole, Escobar had a better OBP than Kole. Kole out slugged him which is no surprise.

Even though Escobar gets OB more than Kole in 2014, he has scored only 2/3 as many runs as Kole scored in 2014 do in part to his poor base running skills. A good leadoff hitter should be able to run the bases well, steal bases on occasion. They should know when to take the extra base and when stay put. Other than hitting Escobar is a below average player.

[Troll Daddy]

Btw Shoemaker is pitching a good game against some tough hitters.

[Angels#1Fan]

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Everyday the rest of the season.  

I don't mind seeing him play third while Escobar is out but when he returns he should take his spot back.

Let Cowart come up in Sept. and have a spring invitation next season and see what he can do. If he hits then give him a shot.

Right now I just don't see the infatuation with Cowart.

[Angels#1Fan]

4 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Btw Shoemaker is pitching a good game against some tough hitters.

Hard to believe there are still people that would like to trade him.

[Angels#1Fan]

28 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

Hahahaha holy crap, this is too funny. You asked if WAR could show that Calhoun 2014 was a better leadoff hitter than Escobar this year. Blah, blah, blah....

Hahahahaha holy crap, this is too funny because that isn't what I asked you..weak Nancy!

WAR is just one stat, it's not the holy grail that you seem to think it is.