Angels "listening" on Yunel Escobar

[Kevin]

2 hours ago, kingsosha said:

Eppler to the DL with an inner ear infection.

Scheduled to come off August 1st.

[joeybaseball]

The Angels have little history of being sellers, holding on to pieces even when the teams were bad. With the way  the FO unfortunately makes decisions that fly in the face of baseball logic, I'd be very surprised if they did anything much that would give us reason to call them "sellers" this summer.

[John Stellman]

On 6/24/2016 at 1:52 PM, Chuckster70 said:

ESPN's Jerry Crasnick reports that the Angels "are listening" on Yunel Escobar and the Giants are "among the teams that have expressed interest."

It could indicate that the Giants aren't expecting Matt Duffy (Achilles) back anytime soon. It's no surprise that the Angels are willing to move Escobar, as they're already 16 games out of first place and don't seem likely to close that gap. Escobar is making $7 million this season and the Halos have a $7 million option on him for 2017.

Related: Giants

 

Source: Jerry Crasnick on Twitter

Definitely opens up another  option  for Marte.

[tomsred]

Posted 8 hours ago · Report post

11 hours ago, kingsosha said:

Eppler to the DL with an inner ear infection.

Scheduled to come off August 1st.

 

...The realistic date is about November 1st.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

8 hours ago, John Stellman said:

Definitely opens up another  option  for Marte.

I really think Marte is being overrated by some on this board. his defense is suspect and if we trade Escobar, why would we move Marte to third, when Cowart plays third with a gold glove type defense and has been hitting well for the second straight year in AAA.

Last year, when he was called to replace Freese he was 0-13 until he got his first hit a GR. After that hit and until Freese's return he hit .300+. If Cowart gets regular AB he will be fine and playing great defense at the same time.

[AngelsFanSince86]

On 6/25/2016 at 10:48 PM, Kevinb said:

Ok I understand Trout I kind of get Calhoun. But in the holy moly crazy world why would you not trade Simmons if someone offered you something. Dude is all glove if that and doesn't even come up to the plate with a bat in his hands. He might do just as well at the plate swinging his helmet at the ball. 

And if most of the board is realistic to know that then why don't you trade those two or three players. We ain't winning anytime soon. 

 

Why would you trade someone at their all time lowest value?  Your point makes no sense.  

First off, your evaluation of Simmons as a hitter is based off this year instead of his career.  His career numbers are middle of the pack offensively.  SS has never been a position where offense was the most important aspect.

Second, if we are trading Simmons then we may as well trade Trout and Calhoun too.  Either the Angels are in full on rebuild mode in which case everything goes or they are in rebuild for 2-3 years from now in which case Simmons and Calhoun are huge pieces of that.  I would be on board if they were going to be FA's any time soon.  They aren't.  So who are you going to trade them for?  Some guys you HOPE turn out to be every day players?  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.  "hey, lets trade Simmons for a guy who may one day be as good as Simmons"...who will be our SS?? Nobody is going to trade an elite SS prospect for anything the Angels have except Trout because SS is one of the hardest positions to fill.

Third,  Simmons value is at its lowest its ever been because he is adjusting to a new team in a different league and had an injury to deal with.  Why would you trade him at a time like this?  Or should we assume this is the real Simmons and not use the rest of his career (see Matt Joyce to see how that logic works out).  He's hitting .270 with a .317 OBP since coming back.  Not very impressive, but its middle of the pack for a SS. There's only 13 SS with an average above .270 and 15 with an OBP above .320.  

 

Basically, there is no point in trading Simmons (or Calhoun) unless you plan on doing a complete rebuild or if some ridiculous trade is proposed. Especially Simmons given his value right now.  At least Calhoun would likely fetch a deal worth considering.  In my opinion the only way you accept a deal for either of those two would be if its a severe overpay for the other team.

 

[kevinb]

20 minutes ago, AngelsFanSince86 said:

 

Why would you trade someone at their all time lowest value?  Your point makes no sense.  

First off, your evaluation of Simmons as a hitter is based off this year instead of his career.  His career numbers are middle of the pack offensively.  SS has never been a position where offense was the most important aspect.

Second, if we are trading Simmons then we may as well trade Trout and Calhoun too.  Either the Angels are in full on rebuild mode in which case everything goes or they are in rebuild for 2-3 years from now in which case Simmons and Calhoun are huge pieces of that.  I would be on board if they were going to be FA's any time soon.  They aren't.  So who are you going to trade them for?  Some guys you HOPE turn out to be every day players?  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.  "hey, lets trade Simmons for a guy who may one day be as good as Simmons"...who will be our SS?? Nobody is going to trade an elite SS prospect for anything the Angels have except Trout because SS is one of the hardest positions to fill.

Third,  Simmons value is at its lowest its ever been because he is adjusting to a new team in a different league and had an injury to deal with.  Why would you trade him at a time like this?  Or should we assume this is the real Simmons and not use the rest of his career (see Matt Joyce to see how that logic works out).  He's hitting .270 with a .317 OBP since coming back.  Not very impressive, but its middle of the pack for a SS. There's only 13 SS with an average above .270 and 15 with an OBP above .320.  

 

Basically, there is no point in trading Simmons (or Calhoun) unless you plan on doing a complete rebuild or if some ridiculous trade is proposed. Especially Simmons given his value right now.  At least Calhoun would likely fetch a deal worth considering.  In my opinion the only way you accept a deal for either of those two would be if its a severe overpay for the other team.

 

Simmons is not good. 

[kevinb]

Just now, hangin n wangin said:

His numbers from 2012-2015 disprove that.

This year he has not been good though.

How bout I change that then. He is not good this year.

[AngelsFanSince86]

9 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

How bout I change that then. He is not good this year.

And Joyce wasn't good last year.  I again ask the question, why would you trade him on his worst year when his value is at its lowest? Just for the sake of trading?  I thought the whole point was that he was one of few players with actual value, but right now his value is comparatively low.  You would get less than what you traded to get him and it would be a reactive, dumb move to make. You would be, in essence, trading Newcomb for Simmons just to trade Simmons for a lesser prospect. Its the equivalent of the Heaney trade for the Dodgers.  Trading one of their most valuable players for a valuable prospect just to flip that prospect for an older, less valuable second baseman.  

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, AngelsFanSince86 said:

And Joyce wasn't good last year.  I again ask the question, why would you trade him on his worst year when his value is at its lowest? Just for the sake of trading?  I thought the whole point was that he was one of few players with actual value, but right now his value is comparatively low.  You would get less than what you traded to get him and it would be a reactive, dumb move to make. You would be, in essence, trading Newcomb for Simmons just to trade Simmons for a lesser prospect. Its the equivalent of the Heaney trade for the Dodgers.  Trading one of their most valuable players for a valuable prospect just to flip that prospect for an older, less valuable second baseman.  

But it could go even lower. Also people think his defense is amazing, you could also point out the splits saying he is this but we all know he really isn't. I'd trade not for the sake of trading but to get rid of his payroll. I would trade everyone not named Trout as I have said many times. The rebuild isn't for next year its a full rebuild hoping to get back to competing in 3-5 years Calhoun isn't apart of that plan he will be over 30 you don't need a defensive specialist on a team not competing. Just like you don't need a closer on a team not competing. 

[Stradling]

Sorry @Kevinb but if you watch him play defense and you don't think he's great then you have unrealistic expectations.  He's an amazing defensive player with good range and a terrific arm.  Those are facts.  I think he's one of those guys that since he has a glaring weakness (hitting) you let that affect your opinion of his defense.  

[Angel Oracle]

And is finally beginning to pick it up at the plate.

[kevinb]

48 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Sorry @Kevinb but if you watch him play defense and you don't think he's great then you have unrealistic expectations.  He's an amazing defensive player with good range and a terrific arm.  Those are facts.  I think he's one of those guys that since he has a glaring weakness (hitting) you let that affect your opinion of his defense.  

Why does a team in a total rebuild need a defensive specialist. A contending team could use that and we could get some more assets back

[Stradling]

Also it doesn't matter what order you gather the players you need as long as you obtain them.  So he's a 26 year old, starting his prime, short stop.  We could use that, either on our team or as a chip to get other pieces.  

[kevinb]

36 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Also it doesn't matter what order you gather the players you need as long as you obtain them.  So he's a 26 year old, starting his prime, short stop.  We could use that, either on our team or as a chip to get other pieces.  

That's what I said trade chip to get other pieces. 

[mulwin444]

Since Eppler traded for Simmons this past offseason, giving up his two most valuable chips in the process, I highly doubt he turns around and trades him again in less than a year.  I didn't like the trade when it happened, still don't like it in fact, but Simmons is probably towards the bottom of the list of tradeable parts at this point.

[Jobu]

7 hours ago, AngelsFanSince86 said:

First off, your evaluation of Simmons as a hitter is based off this year instead of his career.  His career numbers are middle of the pack offensively.  SS has never been a position where offense was the most important aspect.

I'd expect "middle of the pack" to be near 100 OPS+. He's 83.

I'm all for keeping him if the Angels intend to build the kind of team that maximizes his skills - ground ball pitchers, strong right side infield defense that can keep up. 

[AngelsFanSince86]

6 hours ago, Jobu said:

I'd expect "middle of the pack" to be near 100 OPS+. He's 83.

I'm all for keeping him if the Angels intend to build the kind of team that maximizes his skills - ground ball pitchers, strong right side infield defense that can keep up. 

Thats middle of the pack across the board.  SS is a weak hitting position.  100 OPS+ is low for an average 1B and high for an average SS.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

On 6/25/2016 at 7:56 PM, Vegas Halo Fan said:

Hang a cardboard sign around his neck that says "Will pitch for food".

I saw a guy in Downtown Oakland wearing one of those! It wasn't Salad~ Just another Bum.

[AngelsFaninGA]

7 hours ago, AngelsFanSince86 said:

Thats middle of the pack across the board.  SS is a weak hitting position.  100 OPS+ is low for an average 1B and high for an average SS.

I don't know what OPS+ is, but Simmons has the 3rd worst OPS among all SS's with at least 100 PA's, only better than Daniel Castro and Erick Aybar. That's nowhere near middle of the pack. 

[Blarg]

OPS+ takes into account Park factor,  how easy or hard it is to hit at a given ballpark. The Angels have what is considered a pitcher friendly Park that suppresses hitting. So all of the Angels lineup is prorated for having that as the home ballpark. 

It is like slope rating on a golf course. Most courses are 18 holes but your public mini isn't as challenging as a PGA course so each has a rating that affects your handicap. It tries to equal out the playing field for amateur tourneys so a guy with a 5 handicap playing tougher courses doesn't have a gross advantage over a guy with a 5 handicap playing all his rounds on an easy course. 

OPS+ tries to equal out the difference if a guy playing in the Texas band box as apposed to Angels stadium. That way you can rate the players true abilities. 

[Angel Oracle]

Isn't it a little easier for RHH at Angel Stadium?   Although that's more from a power standpoint thanks to the low wall from the LF foul line over to CF, vs the high wall in RF.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

5 hours ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

I saw a guy in Downtown Oakland wearing one of those! It wasn't Salad~ Just another Bum.

Can he get three outs before giving up three runs?

[AngelsFanSince86]

4 hours ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

I don't know what OPS+ is, but Simmons has the 3rd worst OPS among all SS's with at least 100 PA's, only better than Daniel Castro and Erick Aybar. That's nowhere near middle of the pack. 

Yeah, but this discussion was based off of his career stats which are much better than this seasons small sample size.  The reason being that he just switched teams and leagues.  Its tough for any hitter to switch to the AL.

 

For fairness sake I looked at it though and he does rank among the bottom third of SS offensively among qualified players since 2012 when he debuted. However, despite being ranked 17th among 45 players in games played since 2012, he ranks 5th in fWAR.  Yes that is based almost solely on his defense, but it can't be stated enough how important a SS of his caliber is to have.  Its blatantly apparent how much better the infield is when he is there both statistically and by the eye test.  

[AngelsFanSince86]

On 6/27/2016 at 9:55 AM, Kevinb said:

Why does a team in a total rebuild need a defensive specialist. A contending team could use that and we could get some more assets back

What he said:

On 6/27/2016 at 9:56 AM, hangin n wangin said:

That's a different point though. You can want him traded. That's your opinion.

That doesn't take away the fact that he has been a good player in his career.

 

But also, what is your point Kevin?? Your point originally was that he should be traded.  I said they should hold onto him because the point of rebuilding now is to be competitive while the Angels still have Trout.  Simmons is also signed through those years.  I said that trading him is pointless because at best you pretty much end up with someone who might be as valuable as he is. You are trading him in the hopes that you get someone as valuable as him.  Not smart.  Simmons is a proven commodity who just needs to adjust to his new situation.  You countered saying that he isn't worth keeping based on his very limited batting on the Angels (while completely ignoring his career which is not by any means impressive, but is much better than what he's done this year).  I said that we should be looking at his whole career rather than a few ABs and if we are going to sell than why would we sell low?  You then counter with why does a total rebuild need a defensive specialist.  That's off topic and makes no sense.  Are you saying if he was a great hitter and mediocre fielder he would be worth keeping?  Does the fact that his defense is so superior that he ranks in the top 5 in WAR (only behind Crawford, Peralta, and Desmond all of whom have played more games than he has and Tulowitzki) matter? Value is value.

 

So what is your point? You keep bringing up points that really have no aim other than to make a point.  How do these points correspond to your argument?  What is your argument? If you are really for a total rebuild than we are looking at 5+ years from now.  We are looking at trading Trout soon because he is by far our best trade piece.  We are then looking at trading Heaney and Richards as soon as they pitch and gain value and we are definitely trading Shoe at the deadline if he keeps it up since he is looking like he's an ace right now.  That is what a total rebuild looks like.  If we are doing a 3 year rebuild/retool so that we are competitive while Trout is still guaranteed an Angel then you don't trade away guys that will be there during that time that will help the team.  You hold onto Simmons and try to extend Calhoun.  You hold onto Richards (extend him if he does what he is capable of), Shoe, Heaney, and Trop.  You sell high on any and all players other than that.  Escobar is likely the best trade piece.  You hope Lincecum, Santiago, Salas, Smith, and Street gain some value and sell them off either now or for those who will still be under contract at the end of the season.  You draft well after getting a solid draft position and you build toward the near future. 

 

Even if I entertain your notion that a competitive team doesn't need a defensive specialist that wouldn't be the point.  The point is that when the team is competitive we will need one and he will still be under contract.