Who gets the blame for the Angels 2016 downfall?

[Ohtaniland]

3 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

I was going to say Tommy John or Dehydration!.... Neither were an option~

I was going to blame all of the black players on the Angels roster but....

[Taylor]

Just now, CALZONE said:

I was going to blame all of the black players on the Angels roster but....

Darren Oliver was always kind of shifty.

[Chuck]

I added more voting options! 

 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

2 minutes ago, Taylor said:

Darren Oliver was always kind of shifty.

 

[Taylor]

Just now, Chuckster70 said:

I added more voting options! 

Just voted for all five of them.

I miss the ability to create poles where people could add custom options.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

Just now, Taylor said:

Just voted for all five of them.

I miss the ability to create poles where people could add custom options.

Poles with Customized Pole options!!!!

[mulwin444]

1 hour ago, CALZONE said:

There's a pretty good chance that 98 wins would have never happened without the loss of Fielder, Choo, Holland, Darvish, Harrison, Perez, Moreland, Profar..... 

Don't kid yourself, the Angels ran into a lot of luck that season and had home advantage. The non-rested buzzsaw did not fear them.

The Angels record since 2014 is 116-117

The Rangers record since 2014 is 134-100

 

Look, I get it...a 98 win team was "lucky"...because that happens all the time in baseball...you know, teams just running into 100 win seasons.  

Again, what the Angels ran into was not luck...it was a lock down bullpen they haven't had previously or since.  Its no coincidence.  Even with this patchwork lineup/rotation, give this team 2014's BP and they are a .500 team waiting for talent to come off the DL.  2015 showed a regression in some unexpected areas.  Ianetta went from a 123 OPS+ to 78, Aybar from 103 to 81,Calhoun from 123 to 104, and Joyce from 111 to 59.  These are not All Star numbers that they fell from but reasonable career norms.  Also, the BP lost Grilli and Jepsen's contributions and relied on guys like Morin, Salas, Smith and Alvarez to provide depth that never came.  Plus, the wheels came off for Weaver, Wilson and Shoemaker.

If you are going to credit luck in 2014, bad luck has to be cited in 2015 and you have to admire the resolve they showed with a huge comeback in game 161.  

This season is a different animal...we had question marks but projectable talent.  Not many teams are not going to overcome losing an entire rotation (Richards, Heaney, Tropeano, Skaggs and Wilson), including their Ace and #2,  to the DL for long stretches of time.  Even the best franchises aren't equipped to just plug and play SP talent like that and would be equally reluctant to start the clock on their minor league guys without giving a shot to the Chacin's of the world first.

In the end, if I had to place the blame at anyone's feet, its a combo of Arte and Dipoto, but mostly Arte.  I can get on board with letting some of these contracts (Wilson, Weaver, Hamilton) expire and trying to find overlooked/hidden talent as opposed to overspending on aging talent that will cost draft picks but Arte had the option of using resources to boost minor league and international scouting and chose not to invest.  You can't replace Richards talent but maybe some funds towards minor league depth means he's replaced by a 3 starter in talent as opposed to a fringe AAAA talent.  That's where it makes the difference.  Dipoto had his hand in the draft and left an underwear stain that stretched from Orem to SLC...the farm is just utter crap devoid of talent.  

Now, a lot of people want to hit the eject button and turn the Angels into the Padres but in the same breath lament the wasting of Trout's prime years...its either one or the other.  By trading everything productive and cost controlled (Calhoun, Escobar, Cron, Simmons) you have effectively guaranteed Trout will be on a crappy team for years to come.  2017 sees Weaver, Wilson and Smith exit and free up some space to get talent..not All Star level talent but they can fill some holes.  Escobar is a solid lead-off man and a top of the line-up of Escobar, Calhoun and Trout is a good foundation for any offense.  Want to trade Street, Shoemaker and/or Santiago?  Fine, they are expendable and replaceable but you are going to need some talent going forward otherwise this will repeat past 2018.

[Homebrewer]

1 hour ago, Taylor said:

The Angels have only won one playoff series since Obama was elected. Scioscia's contract was extended..Just sayin'.

Fixed

 

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, CALZONE said:

David Ortiz (40 years old) is producing so there's no reason why Albert can't. He's paid well and yes he's a part of the problem with his career low 95 ops+

Maybe Albert just doesn't work as hard as he used to. He's accomplished everything you can in Major League Baseball and his contract is guaranteed so his motivation might not be there. 

The downfall of this organization has a lot to do with Albert. How many playoff wins has he helped deliver since we were the highest bidder?

Arte's current mindset about high dollar free agents is directly connected to Albert and Hamilton. They did not improve the team, they actually tied up a lot of the budget. 

 

And Arte has no one to blame but himself.  Albert is damaged and Ortiz isn't.  You can vilify him all you want, but dude is just plain old now.  His body has quit on him, plain and simple.  

Arte has never changed, until possibly now.  He came in and spent big money, then he got a huge TV contract and spent accordingly, the difference is he spent more and they performed poorly compared to their salaries.  Poor Arte.  He will have to go home and cry in his $150 million tv contract stack of money in his mansion or on his yacht.

[mrwicked]

31 minutes ago, Stradling said:

And Arte has no one to blame but himself.  Albert is damaged and Ortiz isn't.  You can vilify him all you want, but dude is just plain old now.  His body has quit on him, plain and simple.  

Arte has never changed, until possibly now.  He came in and spent big money, then he got a huge TV contract and spent accordingly, the difference is he spent more and they performed poorly compared to their salaries.  Poor Arte.  He will have to go home and cry in his $150 million tv contract stack of money in his mansion or on his yacht.

ortiz is pretty damaged. dude can barely walk.

yet he still rakes.

[Chuck]

4 minutes ago, mrwicked said:

ortiz is pretty damaged. dude can barely walk.

yet he still rakes.

Yep.

Edgar Martinez was damaged too, but the dude was raking as the DH for the Seattle Mariners. He was a hit machine and clutch.

I was hoping Pujols would turn into Edgar as he got older, but the guy cannot stay on the field and it doesn't look like he'll ever sniff a .300 BA again. 

[Ohtaniland]

The excuse-o-matic Machine is burning oil.

[70runner]

The first plunge into the Angels abyss was Moreno awarding Scioscia a 10yr contract extension in 2009.  Since that extension, the Angels have won the division twice in 8yrs (counting 2016), with a 5-7 post season record.  Moreno, apparently on a roll, in 2012 purchased a declining Albert Pujols for $240M with another 10yr contract, recently listed by ESPN as the worst contract in baseball.  Two too many 10yr contracts (another poll option?).  

Hamilton abortion, injuries, et al.

Still got Trout, about the only reason to watch Angels baseball.    

[Homebrewer]

Edgar Martinez and Ortiz both became full-time DHs in their second reincarnations.

Albert insists, and Scioscia goes along with it, that he needs to play in the field as often as possible.

Pig-headedness and lack of leadership is the Halo mantra. .

Which again points squarely at Arte..he is the one that made Albert part owner and Scioscia King for Life.

[Mark68]

3 hours ago, Taylor said:

Just voted for all five of them.

I miss the ability to create poles where people could add custom options.

What pole options would you hope get added?

Flag?

Sitting?

Dancing?

[Mark68]

1 hour ago, Chuckster70 said:

Yep.

Edgar Martinez was damaged too, but the dude was raking as the DH for the Seattle Mariners. He was a hit machine and clutch.

I was hoping Pujols would turn into Edgar as he got older, but the guy cannot stay on the field and it doesn't look like he'll ever sniff a .300 BA again. 

He's struggling to maintain a .300 OBA.

[Homebrewer]

Just now, Mark68 said:

What pole options would you hope get added?

Flag?

Sitting?

Dancing?

It's an "inside" misspelling..

[mrwicked]

1 hour ago, hangin n wangin said:

Ortiz is definitely damaged. He even said recently that he has trouble walking every morning and it's a struggle for him to do it every day. Even though he is putting up beastly numbers, he said he wouldn't consider to keep playing because he physically can't anymore. He's just a flat out better hitter at this point than Pujols is.

yep.

and ortiz is only 5 years younger than pujols.

[Angel Oracle]

This franchise will permanently suck, until Moreno sells the franchise!   I can see him giving Scioscia another 10 year deal, and then signing another declining superstar to an 8-10 year deal after 2017. 

[Homebrewer]

At the very least this thread allowed a few of us to rehash and air out some old grievances, most of which are still valid, and many of which have contributed to the present state of affairs for a team we all care deeply about. 

For things to wind up as bad as they are now, there is never just one cause or even two...there have to be a series of mistakes,  an overriding lack of foresight, with some bad luck added in.. for things to get this bad. A few errors over a period of time add up, and with little or no planning (or stupid planning) and/or poor leadership, the shit is going to pile up and eventually hit the fan. 

It ought to be more and more clear why Dipoto decided to take a huge risk with his career, and walk away. He was able to swim ashore from the sinking ship and live to sail another day on another ship. Scott Servais didn't hesitate when he was invited to come along.

 

[Ohtaniland]

We just kickstarted the Houston Astros season. 

[Mark68]

3 hours ago, mulwin444 said:

Look, I get it...a 98 win team was "lucky"...because that happens all the time in baseball...you know, teams just running into 100 win seasons.  

Again, what the Angels ran into was not luck...it was a lock down bullpen they haven't had previously or since.  Its no coincidence.  Even with this patchwork lineup/rotation, give this team 2014's BP and they are a .500 team waiting for talent to come off the DL.  2015 showed a regression in some unexpected areas.  Ianetta went from a 123 OPS+ to 78, Aybar from 103 to 81,Calhoun from 123 to 104, and Joyce from 111 to 59.  These are not All Star numbers that they fell from but reasonable career norms.  Also, the BP lost Grilli and Jepsen's contributions and relied on guys like Morin, Salas, Smith and Alvarez to provide depth that never came.  Plus, the wheels came off for Weaver, Wilson and Shoemaker.

If you are going to credit luck in 2014, bad luck has to be cited in 2015 and you have to admire the resolve they showed with a huge comeback in game 161.  

This season is a different animal...we had question marks but projectable talent.  Not many teams are not going to overcome losing an entire rotation (Richards, Heaney, Tropeano, Skaggs and Wilson), including their Ace and #2,  to the DL for long stretches of time.  Even the best franchises aren't equipped to just plug and play SP talent like that and would be equally reluctant to start the clock on their minor league guys without giving a shot to the Chacin's of the world first.

In the end, if I had to place the blame at anyone's feet, its a combo of Arte and Dipoto, but mostly Arte.  I can get on board with letting some of these contracts (Wilson, Weaver, Hamilton) expire and trying to find overlooked/hidden talent as opposed to overspending on aging talent that will cost draft picks but Arte had the option of using resources to boost minor league and international scouting and chose not to invest.  You can't replace Richards talent but maybe some funds towards minor league depth means he's replaced by a 3 starter in talent as opposed to a fringe AAAA talent.  That's where it makes the difference.  Dipoto had his hand in the draft and left an underwear stain that stretched from Orem to SLC...the farm is just utter crap devoid of talent.  

Now, a lot of people want to hit the eject button and turn the Angels into the Padres but in the same breath lament the wasting of Trout's prime years...its either one or the other.  By trading everything productive and cost controlled (Calhoun, Escobar, Cron, Simmons) you have effectively guaranteed Trout will be on a crappy team for years to come.  2017 sees Weaver, Wilson and Smith exit and free up some space to get talent..not All Star level talent but they can fill some holes.  Escobar is a solid lead-off man and a top of the line-up of Escobar, Calhoun and Trout is a good foundation for any offense.  Want to trade Street, Shoemaker and/or Santiago?  Fine, they are expendable and replaceable but you are going to need some talent going forward otherwise this will repeat past 2018.

Don't Pujols' & Trout's salaries also jump up at the same time that Weaver, Wilson, & Smith are off the books? Not sure how much space that will actually give them.

[Angel Oracle]

3 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

We just kickstarted the Houston Astros season. 

To be fair, they had already gone 17-8 over the previous 25 games before this series.

[Homebrewer]

3 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

We just kickstarted the Houston Astros season. 

The Reds helped. They are just too talented to have kept up their horrible road play all season. They have won 5 in a row now on the road.

They will give Texas a run for their money before it's all over.

[Angel Oracle]

Just now, Mark68 said:

Don't Pujols' & Trout's salaries also jump up at the same time that Weaver, Wilson, & Smith are off the books? Not sure how much space that will actually give them.

About $37 million AAV comes off the books after this season with Weave, Nibs, and Smith.   Then another $25 million AAV (less whatever Tejas took on) comes off a year later with Hackilton.    Trout's and Pujols' $24 million AAV each is the important number per the luxury tax.   

So Arte the talent scout will have something approaching $62 million additional AAV to work with after 2017.