Dipoto destroyed this organization

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

Can't blame it all on JeDi.... Though there was internal strife and issues... Arte' wanted his shiny bobbles also! And who would have thought that the 4 horseman would each implode at the same time! And a Drug Addict would have a relapse? Or, that It would take Ryan Madson 3 years to comeback to where he is today!...

 

And BTW, the M's are up a game and a half over everyone in the AL West.... Their hitting is at .249 and OBP% .319. Their pitching has kept them in the game and we could have signed Cishek and Peralta also..

 

But, someone thought our pitching was good~ Or, didn't want to go over a self imposed budget or get hit with a luxury tax....

Edited May 12, 2016 by SlappyUtilityMIF

[Angelsjunky]

2 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

This is true for sure but it's an over simplification of the situation. He inherited a team with a reasonable amount of talent, but nothing in the pipeline. There is still nothing in the pipeline and the talent on the team is mostly gone / injured. He was not able to be a part of the solution, and that is his biggest failure.

Of course its an over-simplification, but then you spent the rest of your paragraph basically supporting and reiterating what I said: that he didn't make the org better and it is now in worse shape than when he first came. He is at least indirectly responsible for there being "nothing in the pipeline"; his draft strategy sucked. His trades and signings didn't pay off.

I always liked Dipoto's ideas--he talked a good game--but the total outcome of his tenure was less than the sum of its parts.

[ten ocho recon scout]

55 minutes ago, gotbeer said:

 

Looking back.  Reagins absolutely gutted the farm.  He made a lot of trades, getting what turned out to be very marginal players, and gutting our farm in the process. 

Not arguing that GB, but because im old and cant remember off the top of my head, who did we trade away under reagin? Obviously skaggs/corbin. All i remember was sean rodriguez in the kazmir deal. Who did we trade away of value during those years? I just remember it as we drafted shitty and kept losing draft picks for the no competitive offer thing under reagins.

[nando714]

12 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Not arguing that GB, but because im old and cant remember off the top of my head, who did we trade away under reagin? Obviously skaggs/corbin. All i remember was sean rodriguez in the kazmir deal. Who did we trade away of value during those years? I just remember it as we drafted shitty and kept losing draft picks for the no competitive offer thing under reagins.

Napoli to Toronto then flipped to Texas to ram it down our throats. 

I think we left Darren O'day unprotected in the rule 5 drive

Edited May 12, 2016 by nando714

[Angel Oracle]

The Wells trade was the real bad one for J. Pierpont Reagins.

And allegedly he was forced to by Moreno.

Letting O'Day be unprotected was not good.   Who was the player they needed protected in his place?

Edited May 12, 2016 by Angel Oracle

[Homebrewer]

I used to live for these blame threads, now days I'm only interested in what will change "what it is"..

I've been one of Scioscia's biggest critics, and he needs to go more than ever. IMO he is the face of the dysfunction that's fallen on this franchise.

He isn't the sole cause of it, but he represents it with every mannerism of his style. 

Arte is in hiding, as is usual for him when things get bad. He should sell the team and move on to some other toy he cares about a lot more.

It's come down to just money for him now, and that isn't the way you want an owner, of a team you care about, to operate.

I don't really expect either of these things to happen soon, but until they do...I think we are looking at what this team is going to be like for the foreseeable future.

[Troll Daddy]

1 minute ago, nando714 said:

Napoli to Toronto then flipped to Texas to ram it down our throats. 

I still believe the Napoli trade was more of a salary dump. There wasn't a position at the time to justify his salary bump via arbitration.

[Stradling]

12 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

I still believe the Napoli trade was more of a salary dump. There wasn't a position at the time to justify his salary bump via arbitration.

It's not much of a salary dump when you trade for a guy making 3.5 times more than the guy you are trading.

[GrittyVeterans]

Lol this mess is all on Moreno and Scisocia, They're the narcissistic assholes that  refuse to adapt to new ideas for the better of the organization

[Troll Daddy]

11 minutes ago, Stradling said:

It's not much of a salary dump when you trade for a guy making 3.5 times more than the guy you are trading.

$5 million in salary relief softens the price tag no matter how you slice it.

Unfortunately, the trade was a bust. 

[Taylor]

Trumbo's average and OBP will be down to mediocre again by the end of the season.

[California Cajun]

20 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Really, we can only pretty much put Mr. Pop-Up Wells, Ghost Pujols, and Hackilton at the feet of Arte Moreno.

Granted, that is some pretty bad results alone.

Hackilton is likely the one that soured Moreno on spending money, at least for now.   From a "no more bad contracts" standpoint, that's good.   Got to hope though that it doesn't discourage him from any good signings either. 

Agree.  I think Arte had his hand in the costliest mistakes.  The Greinke deal, the team gambled on a World Series.  Stoneman wouldn't gamble and some great teams floundered in the postseason.   The Grichuk deal, didn't like it.  The draft, the team chose a conservative path until the farm system got better.  The Angel business model is messed up with the manager having more stroke than the GM.

Let's see how Dipoto does in Seattle where he is unencumbered before passing judgment. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Agreed. The financial problems would have been tough for any GM. 

To be fair though, thinking back, reagins to a point was in a similar boat. We hang him for the wells thing, but off the top of my head what else were the really bad ones? Haren in hindsight. But his dumpster diving for guys like abreu and matsui were better than dipotos. Under the radar moves like piniero were dexent. Kazmir was similar to the grienke move. We basically hate him because of the farm. But 5 years later its no better.

To be fair reagins also inherited a far better team, with a fsr better farm. But we also lost more talent to FA on his watch

Reagins inherited a GREAT team with a solid farm. The day he was hired is the day we took a turn for the worst. I don't know why but it was under his reign that we turned our focus away from a long term sustainable approach focusing on player development and smaller FA signings to short term, big name, value poor trades and free agent signings. 

[Docwaukee]

It's impossible to continuously execute the philosophy of this franchise over a long period of time.  Spending a disproportionate amount of money on the major league club relative to scouting and player development and using every last resource in the org in terms of organizational currency to supplement the major league club is a long term recipe for disaster.  It doesn't matter who the gm dujour is.  

Signing high priced free agents  or making trades to supplement the team isn't the devil and across major league baseball has a pretty mixed success rate.  Granted, when your owner intervenes and star power becomes a major factor in the decision making process, you are setting yourself up for trouble.  But the fact that guys like pujols, hamilton, and wells didn't perform only hastens the inevitable.  

Most teams end up with a much smaller window actually.  

Reagins was swimming with sharks.  Dipoto couldn't collaborate and Eppler is everyone's best buddy.  

Dipoto didn't destroy this franchise.  Nor did Reagins and it won't be on Eppler as well.  They have all been tasked with navigating a ship through a rocky shoreline during a bad storm.  The hull is damaged and they are constantly trying to patch holes as best they can.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it makes the holes bigger.  But there are new holes constantly opening because we are still trying to continue along the same course.  We are taking on water in a big way right now and it's gonna take an act of god to save this ship but if they don't stop trying to slalom through rocks, it's never gonna get better.  

This franchise isn't being destroyed by a general manager.  It's destroying itself and Arte is the captain of the ship.  

[Section517]

13 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

This franchise isn't being destroyed by a general manager.  It's destroying itself and Arte is the captain of the ship.  

Does that make Scioscia the Fat Gilligan of the SS Minnow?

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Of course its an over-simplification, but then you spent the rest of your paragraph basically supporting and reiterating what I said: that he didn't make the org better and it is now in worse shape than when he first came. He is at least indirectly responsible for there being "nothing in the pipeline"; his draft strategy sucked. His trades and signings didn't pay off.

I always liked Dipoto's ideas--he talked a good game--but the total outcome of his tenure was less than the sum of its parts.

I just don't find fair to criticize the Skaggs & Santiago for Trumbo trade because Skaggs had tommy john and Trumbo had a great April. Or the criticism of the Segura for Greinke trade because 4 years later Jean is finally off to a hot start. Or the Heaney trade because he's on the DL, or the Morales deal because of the solid couple of years he's recently had even though he was no longer under contract. The list goes on.

The point I'm trying to make here is that this is a very low point for the franchise right now, and we are irrationally looking back and trying to assign blame. Very little can look good from so low. We won't find the answers in individual moves but rather in the process that went into them. It is the process that is the problem, and that process pre-dates Dipoto and still exists with Eppler running the show today. Every GM will have hits and misses, success and failures, but the trajectory of the organization is made up of every decision influencer from top to bottom. This thread is far too singularly focused to shed any light on the big picture.

[happybat4]

I liked almost all of Dipotos trades. The free agent signings were horrible, whether it was his idea or not. Ibanez, Pujols, Hamilton, Blanton.

[Angel Oracle]

The 2010's have seen a return to the Autry years.

Don't get me wrong, Gene Autry created all of this for us and will always be the man.   But his constantly going for it each year made it difficult to build any long term consistency.    Then just as the 2000s seemed to signal the first ever long term consistency, it was ripped out from under us.

Time to reverse this the right way, but it will take some time.   

[Angelsjunky]

31 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I just don't find fair to criticize the Skaggs & Santiago for Trumbo trade because Skaggs had tommy john and Trumbo had a great April. Or the criticism of the Segura for Greinke trade because 4 years later Jean is finally off to a hot start. Or the Heaney trade because he's on the DL, or the Morales deal because of the solid couple of years he's recently had even though he was no longer under contract. The list goes on.

The point I'm trying to make here is that this is a very low point for the franchise right now, and we are irrationally looking back and trying to assign blame. Very little can look good from so low. We won't find the answers in individual moves but rather in the process that went into them. It is the process that is the problem, and that process pre-dates Dipoto and still exists with Eppler running the show today. Every GM will have hits and misses, success and failures, but the trajectory of the organization is made up of every decision influencer from top to bottom. This thread is far too singularly focused to shed any light on the big picture.

I loved, and still like, the Trumbo trade. And I liked the Greinke trade, although was bummed that Dipoto couldn't extend him and instead we got Hamilton. And I appreciate what you are saying, and agree that it is a complex process. That said, as the saying goes, the proof is in the pudding. Dipoto was the GM for four and a half years. Under him the team went to the playoffs once. The farm system got worse and worse, and the payroll became clogged and top-heavy. Overall, the org is in worse shape than it was in 2011.

Now it isn't entirely Dipoto's fault, and he might have done a better job if he had a less-meddling owner and a more flexible manager. But the end result is the end result.

 

[Jobu]

Dipoto brought you the Coors Light Outfield Bar. 

I mean, what the hell do you people want?!? 

[Angelsjunky]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

It's impossible to continuously execute the philosophy of this franchise over a long period of time.  Spending a disproportionate amount of money on the major league club relative to scouting and player development and using every last resource in the org in terms of organizational currency to supplement the major league club is a long term recipe for disaster.  It doesn't matter who the gm dujour is.  

Signing high priced free agents  or making trades to supplement the team isn't the devil and across major league baseball has a pretty mixed success rate.  Granted, when your owner intervenes and star power becomes a major factor in the decision making process, you are setting yourself up for trouble.  But the fact that guys like pujols, hamilton, and wells didn't perform only hastens the inevitable.  

Most teams end up with a much smaller window actually.  

Reagins was swimming with sharks.  Dipoto couldn't collaborate and Eppler is everyone's best buddy.  

Dipoto didn't destroy this franchise.  Nor did Reagins and it won't be on Eppler as well.  They have all been tasked with navigating a ship through a rocky shoreline during a bad storm.  The hull is damaged and they are constantly trying to patch holes as best they can.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it makes the holes bigger.  But there are new holes constantly opening because we are still trying to continue along the same course.  We are taking on water in a big way right now and it's gonna take an act of god to save this ship but if they don't stop trying to slalom through rocks, it's never gonna get better.  

This franchise isn't being destroyed by a general manager.  It's destroying itself and Arte is the captain of the ship.  

 

I agree for the most part, although would alter your analogy somewhat. Arte is the owner of the ship, not the captain. But sometimes he gets confused and wants to play captain, even though in reality he's a nobleman that has no clue about sailing. That's been part of the problem.

 

 

 

[JAHV76]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

It's impossible to continuously execute the philosophy of this franchise over a long period of time.  Spending a disproportionate amount of money on the major league club relative to scouting and player development and using every last resource in the org in terms of organizational currency to supplement the major league club is a long term recipe for disaster.  It doesn't matter who the gm dujour is.  

Signing high priced free agents  or making trades to supplement the team isn't the devil and across major league baseball has a pretty mixed success rate.  Granted, when your owner intervenes and star power becomes a major factor in the decision making process, you are setting yourself up for trouble.  But the fact that guys like pujols, hamilton, and wells didn't perform only hastens the inevitable.  

Most teams end up with a much smaller window actually.  

Reagins was swimming with sharks.  Dipoto couldn't collaborate and Eppler is everyone's best buddy.  

Dipoto didn't destroy this franchise.  Nor did Reagins and it won't be on Eppler as well.  They have all been tasked with navigating a ship through a rocky shoreline during a bad storm.  The hull is damaged and they are constantly trying to patch holes as best they can.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it makes the holes bigger.  But there are new holes constantly opening because we are still trying to continue along the same course.  We are taking on water in a big way right now and it's gonna take an act of god to save this ship but if they don't stop trying to slalom through rocks, it's never gonna get better.  

This franchise isn't being destroyed by a general manager.  It's destroying itself and Arte is the captain of the ship.  

 

[stormngt]

4 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Not arguing that GB, but because im old and cant remember off the top of my head, who did we trade away under reagin? Obviously skaggs/corbin. All i remember was sean rodriguez in the kazmir deal. Who did we trade away of value during those years? I just remember it as we drafted shitty and kept losing draft picks for the no competitive offer thing under reagins.

Traded Kotchman.  I don't remember anyone we traded and now miss.  Haren was a bad trade only because we should have been rebuilding then.  Player for player it wasn't bad.

As for Dipoto.  Grienke for Segura was a bad move only because we couldn't resign him and we didn't win the division.  Had either of those two events happened I don't think anyone would say it was a bad trade.  However in hindsight I guess you can say we miss Segura.  It would have been nice to him instead of Gio.  Jepsen was a bad trade.  I forgot who we gave up for Walden but obviously it had to be not very memorable.  Frieri was a good trade on both ends.  Trumbo was a good trade.  Only way you call it a bad trade is if Skaggs never comes back and Santiogo's arm falls off.

[Erstad Grit]

8 hours ago, nate said:

How is that obvious?

It is obvious he quit because the coaches were ignoring him and he wasn't getting support from Arte.

His Mariners are doing pretty well.

Again.......they are not "HIS" mariners. The players Jedi brought in have all sucked horrible except Cisek. The players carrying the team Jedi inherited.  Just like this team is still Jed's pile of $hit and not Eppler's team yet. After next season with Weaver, Wilson, Smith, and Hamilton money finally freed up we'll know if Eppler has done a good job or not. (that's about 100 million) 

[mp170.6]

22 hours ago, Dochalo said:

This franchise isn't being destroyed by a general manager.  It's destroying itself and Arte is the captain of the ship.  

All of which begs the question if Arte was being honest when he claimed not to be a baseball person.  He used to say he left those decisions to the real baseball people, but there's all kinds of evidence to the contrary.