Gun Control

[mtangelsfan]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/02/gun-tv-home-shopping-channel

 

Yeah, if it were up to me, this wouldn't be legal.

[Crampknees]

profits over background checks is where we are at.  Maybe the only thing I can see positive in this is you are over the 30 order limit, however, ways to get around that also.  Media is causing the fixation and not Mooselems, you can have your 2nd amendment and get your self a few.  After that spend money on fixing up an old 66 Impala SS in the garage.  

[ABC]

I want to have a good discussion on this subject.

 

If you are a gun fanatic that doesn't believe in almost any gun control measures this thread is not for you.

 

If you are an anti-gun fanatic that wants to make all guns illegal this thread is not for you.

 

So I do not believe it should be legal for any guns to be sold over the internet.  I do not believe that gun parts should be sold over the internet.  I do not believe that gun shows should be given an exception for background checks.  I am fine with solid background checks to purchase any kind of firearms.

 

What are some of your guy's (and gals) thoughts?

 

[Amazing Larry]

Not sure I understand that post.

[Jay]

I don't own any guns but I'm considering buying one.

 

What should I get?

[red321]

Not sure I understand that post.

 

I think someone is trying to show you their arsenal

[Spirit]

We've talked a lot over the years about having reasonable gun control laws.  Closing the gun show loophole, mandatory background checks, etc.  I don't think there's too many people (if any) here that are against those ideas.  "If you can save one life" and all. 

 

But, what about these high profile mass shootings?  Not the Chicago gang violence, but the ones the cable networks and politicians go crazy over.  Is there really anything we can do to stop these?  I ask this as a serious question, because I'm not sure we can.  

 

Sandy Hook, Aurora, Colorado Springs, etc.  Would any of the changes that are being proposed stop these?  Again not saying we shouldn't do it, but ... is it just a placebo?  

 

The GOP likes to talk about the mental illness piece.  That's certainly a huge component, but what if a nut job isn't identified as such until after a shooting?  

 

 

 

I'll hang up and take your answer off the air.

[Spirit]

I think someone is trying to show you their arsenal

 

 

Sounds kinky. 

[the dude abides]

I don't own any guns but I'm considering buying one.

 

What should I get?

 

Musket with a bayonet

[Tank]

- a license is needed to purchase and keep a gun. the license must be renewed every 12-24 months.

 

- gun safety classes must be attended and passed before a license is issued, and must be renewed every 5 years. this will affect the length of the waiting period to get your gun, but that will simply have to be part of the price for the privilege.

 

- limit on the size of magazines

 

- no military style weapons (and a clear definition of what constitutes a military type weapon)

 

- close the gun show loophole for purchasing weapons

 

- guns must be locked up at home

 

- aggressive efforts to remove illegally acquired guns

 

- more aggressive mental health screening, and no license granted to anyone with mental health issues, past or current

[mtangelsfan]

- a license is needed to purchase and keep a gun. the license must be renewed every 12-24 months.

 

- gun safety classes must be attended and passed before a license is issued, and must be renewed every 5 years. this will affect the length of the waiting period to get your gun, but that will simply have to be part of the price for the privilege.

 

- limit on the size of magazines

 

- no military style weapons (and a clear definition of what constitutes a military type weapon)

 

- close the gun show loophole for purchasing weapons

 

- guns must be locked up at home

 

- aggressive efforts to remove illegally acquired guns

 

- more aggressive mental health screening, and no license granted to anyone with mental health issues, past or current

 

I might have a problem with this one because it is super vague.  What would be mental health issues to you?  Anyone who visits a psychologist/psychiatris?  Anyone who has been in a mental facility?  

[Jay]

I don't think it's constitutional to say someone who had an illness but has recovered loses their 2nd amendment rights.

[Amazing Larry]

Musket with a bayonet

 

What ever happened to TennAngelsFan?

[Blarg]

I don't own any guns but I'm considering buying one.

What should I get?

Go to a good gun range that rents guns and try out a few to determine if you would even want to continue on to owning your own. You can get some professional instruction and advice instead of listening to some guy with a counter full of what you don't need, selling you on the apocalypse special.

[Tank]

But, what about these high profile mass shootings?  Not the Chicago gang violence, but the ones the cable networks and politicians go crazy over.  Is there really anything we can do to stop these?  I ask this as a serious question, because I'm not sure we can.  

 

Sandy Hook, Aurora, Colorado Springs, etc.  Would any of the changes that are being proposed stop these?  Again not saying we shouldn't do it, but ... is it just a placebo?  

 

The GOP likes to talk about the mental illness piece.  That's certainly a huge component, but what if a nut job isn't identified as such until after a shooting?  

 

i'm one of those who also wonders if any of the proposals would have prevented some of these shootings, and honestly, i don't have an answer.

 

it seems like plenty of these shootings have related to people who were off-balance somehow. we need to find a way to address that. maybe my licensing ideas will help, maybe not. maybe improving mental health services will help - it certainly can't hurt.

[Tank]

I might have a problem with this one because it is super vague.  What would be mental health issues to you?  Anyone who visits a psychologist/psychiatrist?  Anyone who has been in a mental facility?  

 

i guess i'm thinking of people who are being treated for things like PTSD or schizophrenia or are bipolar, as well as those being treated with medication.

[Tank]

I don't think it's constitutional to say someone who had an illness but has recovered loses their 2nd amendment rights.

 

we'd obviously have to have some kind of standard to meet on this.

[Blarg]

we'd obviously have to have some kind of standard to meet on this.

Anything more than 12,252 posts on a message board should be warning flag.

[mtangelsfan]

i guess i'm thinking of people who are being treated for things like PTSD or schizophrenia or are bipolar, as well as those being treated with medication.

 

There are a ton of different medications out there.  Some are anti-depressants, some are anit-anxiety, what would this ban be?

[nate]

Anything more than 12,252 posts on a message board should be warning flag.

 

****

[RuledByNone]

Internet firearm purchases require that the firearm be shipped to a FFL (Federal Firearms License) holder who can process the background check. You fill out an ATF form and the NICS background check goes to the FBI.

 

You also have to pass a Firearms Safety Certificate test and sign an affidavit stating that you own a gun safe and provide make/model.

 

FFLs charge a significant fee and are required to collect local state tax so it usually wouldn't make sense to buy on the internet.

 

There is a 10 day waiting period on all firearms and handgun sales require you to be 21 and show ID in addition to proof of residency (utility bill etc). Person to person transactions require an FFL and background check. Gun show transactions require an FFL and background check.

 

Weapons must be added to the roster by Ca DOJ or they can't be purchased at all. You can't purchase any glock gen 4 in Ca for example. Newer models from many manufacturers are not on roster.

 

 

From the latest CDC numbers:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

Accidental deaths from firearms: 505

Accidental deaths from falls:  30,208

Accidental deaths from poisoning: 38,851

 

310 million guns (2009 estimate) and 100 million gun owners and just 505 accidental deaths. Which of these types of deaths make headlines? It's easier to demonize guns than trees, cliffs and rooftops.

 

 Also from the CDC docs:

Suicide accounts for 65.4% of gun violence deaths. Among white males suicide is 89.1% of gun violence deaths.

Of the remaining deaths (actual homicides), what percentage of them were gang/drug or organized crime related?

CDC doesn't keep that data point but locally LAPD classified 55% of homicides as gang related (2014) and the Sheriff Dept. as 60%. In Chicago that number is 80% (2012 estimate).

 

Among the actual homicides, including gang/drug related homicides, what percentage used rifles?

About 2.3%

From fbi.gov data, that number was just 285 (2013 stats). Of that 285 rifles used in homicides, how many were of the "assault weapon" variety and how many had extended magazines?

 

Why is it that the countries that have the highest homicide rate often have among the lowest gun ownership percentage? Mexico, Brazil, Honduras, Colombia all have gun ownership levels below 10% but have terrible gun homicide statistics. Switzerland has gun ownership rates of about 50% but has very low gun crime.

 

Could there instead be a correlation between homicide rate and a government created black market with extremely high profit motive (prohibition)? Prohibition of alcohol resulted in a huge expansion of organized crime throughout the country with a very small (few percent) reduction in alcohol consumption. Removing the prohibition also removed the profit motive and the accompanying crime. Prohibition doesn't work. If you are truly honest about reducing crime then removing a prohibition (drugs) would be more effective than increasing another.

[Spirit]

Interesting stuff, LvM

[nate]

The last point about prohibition is wrong.  Movies and books love to tell stories of the mob and alcohol flowing everywhere but in reality outside of illegal drinking, crime was down and the number of the people drinking alcohol was way down.

[Adam]

I'm not a gun fanatic. I don't have em and don't want them. I don't think anyone ever convicted of a violent crime should be allowed to purchase a gun legally. I also believe, as Nate said, the registered gun owner shares equal liability if a crime is ever committed or death caused by the firearm. 

[Spirit]

i'm one of those who also wonders if any of the proposals would have prevented some of these shootings, and honestly, i don't have an answer.

 

it seems like plenty of these shootings have related to people who were off-balance somehow. we need to find a way to address that. maybe my licensing ideas will help, maybe not. maybe improving mental health services will help - it certainly can't hurt.

 

 

Appreciate the response.  I realize it wasn't an easy set of questions.