Ferguson Unrest

[ten ocho recon scout]

@glen,

Agree that Wilson isnt a hero. He simply did his job. The shit part of it is that he lost his job for doing nothing wrong.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion, and personally i enjoy conversing with people of differing viewpoints. But some of the critique im reading her about tactics and incompetance is silly. The world isnt sterile and there are no written scripts.

Poor tactics are on video in cleveland right now...but someone rushing you in your car isnt really anything you have control of.

And i still cant believe anyone is trying to put the blame on the cop for the actions of the other guy....

Brwon was 18? So he made it all these years without the cops shooting him? And wilson dod the job for 8 years without shooting someone? Im thinking browns decision that day is what cause all of this mess, not wilsons actions

[Adam]

A few thoughts about this:

 

1.  Charles Barkley is gonna be the new Bill Cosby, now that the 'Cos is incommunicado and tired.

 

2.  I'd be lying if I said there weren't a few times I wanted to taze a random black person with their pants sagging.  It's why I don't carry a tazer: poor impulse control.

 

3.  From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, the usual function of a grand jury is to determine if there is cause to go forward with a trial, and usually any sort of doubt is cause.  Seems to me like there is at least some justified doubt in this case.

 

4.  Warning: generalizations ahead.  The truth is probably, as usual, somewhere in between.  The cop isn't quite the hero that white folk want him to be, the dead guy isn't the martyr that black folk want him to be.

 

Good post

[Adam]

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by#detailed/1/any/false/868,867,133,38,35/10,168,9,12,1,13,185/432,431

 

Discuss

[InsideThePark]

@glen,

Agree that Wilson isnt a hero. He simply did his job. The shit part of it is that he lost his job for doing nothing wrong.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion, and personally i enjoy conversing with people of differing viewpoints. But some of the critique im reading her about tactics and incompetance is silly. The world isnt sterile and there are no written scripts.

Poor tactics are on video in cleveland right now...but someone rushing you in your car isnt really anything you have control of.

And i still cant believe anyone is trying to put the blame on the cop for the actions of the other guy....

Brwon was 18? So he made it all these years without the cops shooting him? And wilson dod the job for 8 years without shooting someone? Im thinking browns decision that day is what cause all of this mess, not wilsons actions

Oh yeah, everything that happened in Cleveland was brutally incompetent. From the dispatcher not relaying critical information to the training officer pulling up within several feet of the victim. We have video evidence of that and everything about it is just sad. Gotta feel for the rookie cop as well, his partner put him in a horrible position.

[ten ocho recon scout]

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/michael-brown-mom-face-felony-armed-robbery-charges-article-1.2001373

Think there will be riots if she doesnt get charged?

[ten ocho recon scout]

In terms of cleveland, even if the dispatxher relayed it 'it might be fake', you still have to treat it as real.

That said, i dont as much blame the cop that shot (from the slowed video it looks like the kid is pointing it at them but i could be wrong), but absolutely no clue at all why in the hell the would pull right up like that. They created the excigency in that, and the result was horrible.

They shit the bed on that one badly.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I hate to be a bandwagoner, but im stsrting to like charles barkley. He had some good quotes a few weeks back on a similar issue as well

[wopphil]

In terms of cleveland, even if the dispatxher relayed it 'it might be fake', you still have to treat it as real.

That said, i dont as much blame the cop that shot (from the slowed video it looks like the kid is pointing it at them but i could be wrong), but absolutely no clue at all why in the hell the would pull right up like that. They created the excigency in that, and the result was horrible.

They shit the bed on that one badly.

Maybe I expect too much from our youth these days, but any 12-year old should know you don't (1) point a gun at strangers, then (2) point a gun at police officers. It is a sad, sad situation, but blaming the officers is an easy way out

[InsideThePark]

I hate to be a bandwagoner, but im stsrting to like charles barkley. He had some good quotes a few weeks back on a similar issue as well

I think you're talking about his take on the Russell Wilson not being black enough story... and I agree. He had to deal with backlash from the black community on that and I felt that was unfair. He was just telling it like it is.

[ten ocho recon scout]

The first interview in Jordan Downs. Thats Grape Hood (anyone from LA knows who they are). So you have two guys from arguably one of the most notorious gangs in city history, talking about how the police instill fear....im betting they arent exactly telling the youngsters to stop bothering the people over in imperial courts or the nicks.....

And a few minutes later you see what happens (same projects)

The media eats those interviews up. But its not the PD thats causing the fear on the neighborhood. And watts isnt unique, thats just bad neighborhood USA.

[mtangelsfan]

In terms of cleveland, even if the dispatxher relayed it 'it might be fake', you still have to treat it as real.

That said, i dont as much blame the cop that shot (from the slowed video it looks like the kid is pointing it at them but i could be wrong), but absolutely no clue at all why in the hell the would pull right up like that. They created the excigency in that, and the result was horrible.

They shit the bed on that one badly.

 

I think that is the problem, when people with guns make mistakes other people often die.  That can't be fixed or repaired, it is final. 

[gotbeer]

Ten.  here is another question for you, that probably you and LB can answer.

 

Do you treat someone who is jaywalking differently than someone that committed strong armed robbery?  Because in this case, it started at jaywalking, but then came to a realization that he might have a strong armed robber on his hands.

[InsideThePark]

Maybe I expect too much from our youth these days, but any 12-year old should know you don't (1) point a gun at strangers, then (2) point a gun at police officers. It is a sad, sad situation, but blaming the officers is an easy way out

You're off on this one, phil. Blaming the 12 year old in that instance is silly. The kid was just goofing around. By the way, he was shot within 2 seconds from when the cops exited the vehicle. He probably didn't know what the hell was going on.

[gotbeer]

I think you're talking about his take on the Russell Wilson not being black enough story... and I agree. He had to deal with backlash from the black community on that and I felt that was unfair. He was just telling it like it is.

 

It's just like the backlash that I think it was one of the Cosby Show kids created when she said she wasn't black.  She was American.  

[Blarg]

My view on this situation is probably different than most.  Ten Ocho, LBHalos17, I'm curious what you think either way.  I think Darren Wilson's own testimony proves incompetence on his part.  Incompetence that may have contributed to Michael Brown's death.  Note: I said contributed, not caused. 

 

1.  He admitted he drove up to the teenagers standing in the middle of the street with them "about at my hood".  Why not keep a car or two distance and use the loudspeaker?  This likely pissed them off. 

 

2.  One of the teens responded with "F*ck what you have to say," and Wilson put the police Tahoe in reverse.  Here the kid was obviously angry but Wilson decided to back up anyway with him (1) out of view (blind spot), or (2) barely visible in the mirror.  Had Brown been armed, Darren Wilson gave him a perfect opportunity to pull out a gun and shoot him in the face.  He also gave Brown the opportunity to spit on him, assault him, trap him inside the car, etc, etc.  Why not make a U-turn instead so you have a good visual on both kids before approaching them a second time?

 

3.  Wilson made it worse by inviting Brown to his open driver's side window.  A stupid idea for a belligerent subject, don't you think? 

 

4.  I don't understand how a competent police officer allows Brown to get his hands, arms, and head(!) inside the police vehicle with the officer already seated.  At that point, why didn't Wilson take his foot off the brake to put himself out of the reach of Brown, maybe even knock Brown to the ground?  All it takes is moving the car five or ten feet. 

 

5.  Wilson raised his firearm right where Brown could grab it.  Again, stupid.  Another reason to move the car slightly forward or back to buy some distance and time. 

 

6.  The gun fired, Brown is hit, and Brown managed to throw more punches before fleeing on foot.  By now, Wilson had Brown's blood on him, but he talks later as if he wasn't sure whose blood it was at first.  Why did Wilson figure it was safe to pursue Brown on foot?  He could have been the one injured, not Brown.

 

I am pretty confident that the entire incident happened in less time that you took to write 7 paragraphs. In fact the struggle probably took less time than paragraph 2. With that in mind, I doubt anyone involved was doing any deep introspective thinking about the situation they put themselves into. 3 months later it is pretty safe to say there were other options.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Maybe I expect too much from our youth these days, but any 12-year old should know you don't (1) point a gun at strangers, then (2) point a gun at police officers. It is a sad, sad situation, but blaming the officers is an easy way out

Yeah, its not a good idea to point, but the driver of that car should have a parked a distance away. If lets say they gunpointed him from behind the doors of the car and th3 kid still pointed, yeah, its understandable why to shoot. But pulling straight up like that forced the issue

[wopphil]

Yeah, its not a good idea to point, but the driver of that car should have a parked a distance away. If lets say they gunpointed him from behind the doors of the car and th3 kid still pointed, yeah, its understandable why to shoot. But pulling straight up like that forced the issue

I agree. But again, any 12-year old should know you don't point a gun at anyone, let alone an officer.

When I was 11, I was the victim of an armed robbery. I knew damn well at that point what a gun was and what it could do. There was no mistaking its significance. I am guessing this 12-year old knew as well.

Again, it is very sad, but perhaps the questions that should be asked are (1) why did this 12-year old have this gun in the first place, (2) where the **** were his parents in all of this, and (3) what happened in his life that made him think it is ok to point guns at people and officers?

[gotbeer]

Meet the woman spearheading the federal probe of Ferguson

 

This will be interesting depending on the outcome.  Hopefully she won't get swayed politically.  

[InsideThePark]

I agree. But again, any 12-year old should know you don't point a gun at anyone, let alone an officer.

When I was 11, I was the victim of an armed robbery. I knew damn well at that point what a gun was and what it could do. There was no mistaking its significance. I am guessing this 12-year old knew as well.

Again, it is very sad, but perhaps the questions that should be asked are (1) why did this 12-year old have this gun in the first place, (2) where the **** were his parents in all of this, and (3) what happened in his life that made him think it is ok to point guns at people and officers?

It was a fake gun that looked real and he didn't point it at the officers. But like I said earlier it's hard to put much blame on the cop who fired because he was put in what seemed to be a very threatening situation.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I think that is the problem, when people with guns make mistakes other people often die. That can't be fixed or repaired, it is final.

agree 100 percent.

Thats not to say there arent understandable tragic accidents (cop, vivilian whoever). But too often people dont understand the true responsibility of firearms, especially young people. Thats what makes gangs so dangerous.

You hear people all the time say 'hes just a kid', but i knew more than a few shooters when i was in high school, and all over LA and places like it its not at all uncommon to run accross early teenagers who are good for a handful of shootings. Sometimes even younger.

But IMO, yes, they screwed up bad on that one. Theres another one going on right now in Georgia (off the top of my head), where a black officer shot and killed black kid with a toy gun. Again, just as tragic, but at least from what im reading that one sounds little more understandable (group of teens seem carrying a gun into an abondoned house, cop knocks on the door, kid is holding the gun and tries to slam it shut if im not mistaken). Not saying it was a good shoot or a bad shoot, but seems more reasonable than the cleveland one.

[Kevin]

According to Wilson in his testimony, jaywalking was part of the issue. The fact that cars had to drive around him made the jaywalking a bigger deal. If I remember correctly after reading the transcript.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Ten. here is another question for you, that probably you and LB can answer.

Do you treat someone who is jaywalking differently than someone that committed strong armed robbery? Because in this case, it started at jaywalking, but then came to a realization that he might have a strong armed robber on his hands.

To be fair GB, for the sake of argument, wilson could bery well full of shit about noting brown could be the robbery suspect. For the sake of argument, he could be covering himself. (I habe no reason to doubt him, but in order to look at it from different angles lets say he is). The reason i keep repeatedly memtioning the jaywalking part is that it is non debateable, johnson even admits it. That alone is enough to detain them, and its the officers discretion to either write a ticket or not. Its not in any way a huge deal, but it would be like running a stop sign. Youre detained until the cop is finished (either wtiting the ticket or checking for warrants).

But to answer your question, yes. If in fact you have reason to believe someone is the suspect in a felony you obviously approach it differently. In a perfect scenario, wilson would be out of the car, and had both brown and johnson sit down while he waited for his partner. But like always, there is rarely a perfect world scenario.

[Blarg]

The Jay walking is a little misunderstood in this case. The two were not crossing outside of crosswalk, they were walking down the middle of a traffic Lane. The officer has to make some contact with them while someone walking across clear lanes to a curb would probably hardly register a glance.

[wopphil]

It was a fake gun that looked real and he didn't point it at the officers. But like I said earlier it's hard to put much blame on the cop who fired because he was put in what seemed to be a very threatening situation.

It was an air gun with the orange cap removed, probably to make it look more realistic. You cannot honestly tell me that the officers - or anyone else for that matter - should have known the difference.

[InsideThePark]

It was an air gun with the orange cap removed, probably to make it look more realistic. You cannot honestly tell me that the officers - or anyone else for that matter - should have known the difference.

Oh of course not. That's why I said earlier that I sympathize with the cop who fired the shots... he's got to live with that. His partner put him in a horrible position.

Edited December 2, 2014 by InsideThePark