Your ideas on how to fix the K-12 education system

[mp170.6]

This is a place to post what you HATED about your time as a student in the K-12 education system.  Explain it as best you can, then offer a potential solution to the problem. 

 

Teachers are welcome to post from their perspective as well. 

[tdawg87]

Less homework, more actual work in the classroom.

[Jason]

Homework is almost pointless when the parents aren't able to facilitate the learning since they may not understand the work themselves. There is nothing the schools can do if the kids' home life doesn't reinforce anything.

[halomatt]

Homework is almost pointless when the parents aren't able to facilitate the learning since they may not understand the work themselves. There is nothing the schools can do if the kids' home life doesn't reinforce anything.

This is exactly correct.  I have seen some teachers assign work that is difficult for the students to complete.  What chance does a parent have?  What about the uneducated parent or non-English-speaking parent?  Hopeless.  I don't assign homework that the kids can't do.  I believe that homework should be reinforcement of what was taught in the classroom.  I always tell my kids to "try" the work.  If they don't "try", they will not understand what they know and do NOT know.  It's a remedy to "I don't get it." complaints.   

 

All I ask is that parents be an active participant in their child's education.  Even if they can't complete the work, for the kids' sake, sit with them and support them.  Too many parents feel like the homework and the education is just the kids' job and not theirs.  Kids are very adept at sniffing out truth and if their parent says one thing but does another, well many kids know how to manipulate and evade the work. 

[Amazing Larry]

Eliminate the Federal and California Departments of Education for starters. After that you can break up oversized school districts like LAUSD. The bigger the organization, the bigger corruption and problems. It's time for this to be taken care of at a local level.

[halomatt]

Eliminate the Federal and California Departments of Education for starters. After that you can break up oversized school districts like LAUSD. The bigger the organization, the bigger corruption and problems. It's time for this to be taken care of at a local level.

I've thought about this too.  I don't have any facts at all to support, but I wonder how much money that should be getting to the teachers, students and classrooms doesn't get past the politicians.  I beleive that the local control is essential in determining what those students need in THAT local area. 

Edited June 14, 2014 by halomatt

[mp170.6]

I think for me it's the scheduling inefficiencies that are torturous for students and teachers alike. 

 

Forcing kids in junior high and high school to take six subjects per day is terrible when you realize how much time is wasted and the stress it causes.  I presume your classes went much like mine:  First ten minutes teacher takes attendance, writes detention slips, hands back assignments.  The next ten minutes, homework from the previous night was reviewed. Then just 20-25 minutes to teach the new lesson, followed by ten minutes to answer questions and issue that day's homework.  Rush, rush, rush through everything.  Talk about a nightmare for math and science classes -- never enough time to explain a complicated subject.  How do we expect kids to concentrate and succeed when the subject matter changes every hour, when they're suffering from ADHD, and when they're anxious about numerous tests and assignments due in other classes the same day?

 

For anybody keeping tabs, that's about 60 minutes per day spent on attendance and returning papers, and 25 minutes (five minutes each time) passing between classrooms.  All wasted.  Most of the time could be recovered if students took one or two classes per day, similar to being a college student.  Two scenarios that I wish were available when I was a kid -- either one would have been great IMHO...

 

One subject per day:

Monday:  English

Tuesday: Math

Wednesday: Science

Thursday: History

Friday:  Some other subject

+ 1 hour of PE everyday

 

Two subjects per day:

Monday/Tuesday:  English and Math

Wednesday:  Some other subject

Thursday/Friday:  History and Science

+ 1 hour of PE everyday

[mp170.6]

This is exactly correct.  I have seen some teachers assign work that is difficult for the students to complete.  What chance does a parent have?  What about the uneducated parent or non-English-speaking parent?  Hopeless.  I don't assign homework that the kids can't do.  I believe that homework should be reinforcement of what was taught in the classroom.  I always tell my kids to "try" the work.  If they don't "try", they will not understand what they know and do NOT know.  It's a remedy to "I don't get it." complaints.  

 

You mean like silly crossword puzzles?  I got those many times.  Waste of time. 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Eliminate the Federal and California Departments of Education for starters. After that you can break up oversized school districts like LAUSD. The bigger the organization, the bigger corruption and problems. It's time for this to be taken care of at a local level.

 

This can be taken to extremes as well. Case in point: I grew up and attended K-12 in Florida and lived in Oklahoma for a number of years. Florida has 67 school districts, one for each county. Oklahoma, with a fraction of the population, has over 600. That is 600+ school district administrators plus various asssistants, support staff, office buildings, etc. Far too much of the education dollar is spent on overhead when the pie is split too many ways.

[halomatt]

You mean like silly crossword puzzles?  I got those many times.  Waste of time. 

I can't speak to your educational experience, but I know of one teacher who might do this. No other teacher I know would send home a crossword puzzle UNLESS the content of such was of some importance.  It's too difficult to generalize your personal experience.  It's also illogical.

[halomatt]

This can be taken to extremes as well. Case in point: I grew up and attended K-12 in Florida and lived in Oklahoma for a number of years. Florida has 67 school districts, one for each county. Oklahoma, with a fraction of the population, has over 600. That is 600+ school district administrators plus various asssistants, support staff, office buildings, etc. Far too much of the education dollar is spent on overhead when the pie is split too many ways.

Hmm...that's a good example of what could happen.  Still a problem, but in the "other" direction, I suppose. 

[halomatt]

I think for me it's the scheduling inefficiencies that are torturous for students and teachers alike. 

 

Forcing kids in junior high and high school to take six subjects per day is terrible when you realize how much time is wasted and the stress it causes.  I presume your classes went much like mine:  First ten minutes teacher takes attendance, writes detention slips, hands back assignments.  The next ten minutes, homework from the previous night was reviewed. Then just 20-25 minutes to teach the new lesson, followed by ten minutes to answer questions and issue that day's homework.  Rush, rush, rush through everything.  Talk about a nightmare for math and science classes -- never enough time to explain a complicated subject.  How do we expect kids to concentrate and succeed when the subject matter changes every hour, when they're suffering from ADHD, and when they're anxious about numerous tests and assignments due in other classes the same day?

 

For anybody keeping tabs, that's about 60 minutes per day spent on attendance and returning papers, and 25 minutes (five minutes each time) passing between classrooms.  All wasted.  Most of the time could be recovered if students took one or two classes per day, similar to being a college student.  Two scenarios that I wish were available when I was a kid -- either one would have been great IMHO...

 

One subject per day:

Monday:  English

Tuesday: Math

Wednesday: Science

Thursday: History

Friday:  Some other subject

+ 1 hour of PE everyday

 

Two subjects per day:

Monday/Tuesday:  English and Math

Wednesday:  Some other subject

Thursday/Friday:  History and Science

+ 1 hour of PE everyday

There are many schools, especially high schools, that block their subject in order to spend a longer period (ha! get it?) of time discussing concepts.  I always found that, with writing in particular, I was a more successful teacher when we block-scheduled. 

[mp170.6]

I can't speak to your educational experience, but I know of one teacher who might do this. No other teacher I know would send home a crossword puzzle UNLESS the content of such was of some importance.  It's too difficult to generalize your personal experience.  It's also illogical.

 

I had several teachers who did this back in the day.  Even in high school I had a history teacher request we bring crayons or colored pencils to school so we could color and label maps for credit.  They were too lazy to create assignments of any value. 

 

My sophomore English teacher didn't actually teach anything.  She assigned busy work like crossword puzzles and walked around the room socializing with students as they completed the assignments.  If we didn't like our grade in the class, extra credit was available by donating money to her favorite charitable organization.  This is the same teacher who got into an argument with a female student and pinned the girl against the chalkboard with a frontal chokehold. She cooked up a story with the teacher in the next classroom about how the girl made the first punch.  The other teacher agreed to lie and say he was a witness to the whole thing.  I know this because I witnessed the incident and overheard the conversation they had from the storage room.  She never went to jail or lost her job thanks to other teachers and administrators covering the whole thing up.  They gave her a golden handshake (lots of extra $$$) to retire early and go away several years later. 

 

At least in my case, the "crossword puzzle" teachers seemed to be deeply flawed or corrupt in other ways. 

 

 

There are many schools, especially high schools, that block their subject in order to spend a longer period (ha! get it?) of time discussing concepts.  I always found that, with writing in particular, I was a more successful teacher when we block-scheduled. 

 

That's interesting.  I didn't know that any high schools were using a method like this. 

[halomatt]

I had several teachers who did this back in the day.  Even in high school I had a history teacher request we bring crayons or colored pencils to school so we could color and label maps for credit.  They were too lazy to create assignments of any value. 

 

My sophomore English teacher didn't actually teach anything.  She assigned busy work like crossword puzzles and walked around the room socializing with students as they completed the assignments.  If we didn't like our grade in the class, extra credit was available by donating money to her favorite charitable organization.  This is the same teacher who got into an argument with a female student and pinned the girl against the chalkboard with a frontal chokehold. She cooked up a story with the teacher in the next classroom about how the girl made the first punch.  The other teacher agreed to lie and say he was a witness to the whole thing.  I know this because I witnessed the incident and overheard the conversation they had from the storage room.  She never went to jail or lost her job thanks to other teachers and administrators covering the whole thing up.  They gave her a golden handshake (lots of extra $$$) to retire early and go away several years later. 

 

At least in my case, the "crossword puzzle" teachers seemed to be deeply flawed or corrupt in other ways. 

 

 

 

That's interesting.  I didn't know that any high schools were using a method like this. 

That's really too bad your experience was so crappy.  Those teachers are the ones that give me a bad name.  I don't appreciate that.  I do believe in tenure's general concept, but to protect those "bad" teachers? Hell no.  Those people, unfortunately, are the ones by which we are all measured. 

 

As to the block periods, I know that several high schools in my district use that.  I used to use block scheduling in eighth grade.  My block partner requested that we not use it a few years back. One of the issues that crops up is that with disorganized, lazy, or ADHD/ADD kids, they often forgot or lost assignments or tasks that needed completing because they didn't go to the class for a couple of days.  Often they might fill out their school agenda on Monday at the end of class.  But they often think,"I have two days before I come back in this class." Tuesday night, they look at their agenda, but only see the work assigned for Tuesday, completely forgetting that they had homework on Monday night.  Come in to class on Wednesday and they're shell-shocked, completely forgetting I assigned something. 

 

I still think the block has more going for it than against it.  Perhaps after this school year, I can convince my partner to go back.  (We're still a year-round school, so our school year ends June 27.)

[notherhalo]

good schools (test results) need to give less credit to the teachers, and more to the students/families that raised those students

[Adam]

Eliminate public education

[halobob]

History should be an elective IMO (sorry tank).  High school needs to require 4 years of math instead of 3.  There needs to be a common life knowledge course where kids learn about money management, not to carry credit card balances, how to complete and file your taxes etc.  

[mp170.6]

That's really too bad your experience was so crappy.  Those teachers are the ones that give me a bad name.  I don't appreciate that.  I do believe in tenure's general concept, but to protect those "bad" teachers? Hell no.  Those people, unfortunately, are the ones by which we are all measured. 

 

As to the block periods, I know that several high schools in my district use that.  I used to use block scheduling in eighth grade.  My block partner requested that we not use it a few years back. One of the issues that crops up is that with disorganized, lazy, or ADHD/ADD kids, they often forgot or lost assignments or tasks that needed completing because they didn't go to the class for a couple of days.  Often they might fill out their school agenda on Monday at the end of class.  But they often think,"I have two days before I come back in this class." Tuesday night, they look at their agenda, but only see the work assigned for Tuesday, completely forgetting that they had homework on Monday night.  Come in to class on Wednesday and they're shell-shocked, completely forgetting I assigned something. 

 

I still think the block has more going for it than against it.  Perhaps after this school year, I can convince my partner to go back.  (We're still a year-round school, so our school year ends June 27.)

 

Would ADHD kids do better with longer class periods, i.e. 2, 3, 4 hours instead of one hour or less?

 

My perception back in the day (which may be totally incorrect) is that kids with moderate ADHD could calm down and focus but it took half an hour, and all concentration was lost when the bell rang and they went to the next class.  The cycle repeated itself all over again with every class. 

[mp170.6]

History should be an elective IMO (sorry tank).  High school needs to require 4 years of math instead of 3.  There needs to be a common life knowledge course where kids learn about money management, not to carry credit card balances, how to complete and file your taxes etc.  

 

I think history is valuable but could be improved upon.  They started teaching us world history in 5th or 6th grade, which was way too early in my opinion.  Focusing on US history and mastering that at younger ages would be more appropriate before branching out.  Sometimes the words and concepts we take for granted are too much for 12-year olds to handle.  My mom gets a chuckle out of me confusing England with New England at a young age.  I couldn't comprehend why New England was on a different continent. 

 

All of your other points are right on the money.  The number of remedial math classes offered at community colleges is staggering and it's a direct result of math not being effectively taught in high school.  English is another disaster IMHO (sorry halomatt). 

 

I never understood why simple life skills, such as CPR and First Aid, were never included in high school curriculum.  I just got recertified myself -- it's a 5-hour course with no test.  They give you an American Red Cross certification card good for two years when you finish.  Having that card is really valuable to many employers and would help teenagers find work.   That's what frustrated me so much, many of the things taught in high school have no value in the real world. 

[Hollyw00d]

Eliminate the standardized testing system. That would be a good start

[Tank]

Eliminate the way standardized test results are used by politicians and school district administrators. That would be a good start

 

fixed.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Homework is almost pointless when the parents aren't able to facilitate the learning since they may not understand the work themselves. There is nothing the schools can do if the kids' home life doesn't reinforce anything.

 

Also, I'm not sure what it proves when I do something by myself. On the one hand, it can show that I have learned from the teacher and grasp the content. On the other, it can show that I already knew the material and the teacher has provided me with nothing new.

 

My own impression has been that teachers who assign a lot of homework had rather grade papers than teach.

[Tank]

I've always approached homework as a time to complete whatever you didn't finish in class. With nearly every assignment I give, I allow plenty of class time in which to complete it. I do this to try and reduce the homework burden on kids and because there are too many kids who simply won't do the work at home, which frustrates everybody involved. I rarely assign separate assignments as just homework.

There are a couple of word searches that I use with US History, but the answers have to come through answering questions from a reading, and are sufficiently challenging. Some assignments are easy, and I think it's good to mix in an easy one here and there. The motivated kids like a break once in a while, and the lower students get a chance for some easy points, which helps them.

Ideally, I would assign mostly projects and more writing.

[mp170.6]

How do you guys feel about teachers basing 10-25% of a student's grade on classroom participation, i.e. raising your hand and asking questions?  I think it's bad for several reasons. 

 

The hardest working, highest-achieving kids are usually the quietest, and some are foreigners whose English conversational skills are not yet refined.   Some kids are also dealing with extreme social anxiety and self esteem issues and can't function in front of a group of people. 

 

Don't get me wrong, interaction with other students should be encouraged, but why punish (or reward) kids by the number of times they speak up?  A kid could get A's on all tests and assignments but finish with a B or C in the class because they didn't "participate" enough.  That's just wrong in my opinion. 

[mtangelsfan]

I agree with adam about elimating public education altogether.  However I also know that is never going to happen.  Here are a few thoughts I have had.

 

1.  Stop treating every student as though they learn the same way at the same pace.  I think a track system would work much better.  This assembly line thought process of education might have been great at the height of the industrial revolution, but not anymore.

 

2.  Find a way to reward good teachers and get rid of poor ones.  This should be done through means other than standardized tests which are, to me, a waste of time.

 

3.  Stop the thought process that every kid should go to college.  Some of the best jobs out there pay wise don't require a college degree but they do require learning a craft or skill.  If a kid after a couple years of high school shows an afinity for plumbing, welding or such they should have the opportunity to head that direction.

 

4.  Localize, localize, localize.  The more control that is kept close they more bang for your buck you get.  Also, what works in the suburbs may not work in rural areas or city areas.

 

5.  Whatever direction they take, stick with it.  Our kids have been guinea pigs for almost 40 years with all the different things that have been thrown at them.

 

6.  Any cuts that come into play should start at the top with administators.  Teachers should be the last in line for cuts.