AngelsWin.com Fan Forum
AngelsWin.com Fan Forum
Search | Home | Chat | Blog | Store | Interviews | History Forums | Quotes | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )



Random quote: "Baseball hasn't forgotten me. I go to a lot of Old Timers games and I haven't lost a thing. I sit in the bullpen and let people throw things at me. Just like old times." - Bob Uecker
- (Added by: notherhalo)


Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter
Moderators: tomsred, Adam, IEBRUIN, Bruce Nye, Kurt Swanson, Blarg, mancini79

Jump to page : 1 2 3 4 5
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   AngelsWin -> Los Angeles Angels DailyMessage format
 
Dave Saltzer
Posted 2013-01-03 1:42 AM (#1915019)
Subject: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter


All-Star

Posts: 2572

Thursday, January 3, 2013

Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter


By David Saltzer, AngelsWin.com Senior Writer
Sometimes you read something and you just have to respond. The words are just too powerful to let go. Not saying anything gives approval of the statement.
  
Yes, I’m talking about Torii Hunter—just not in the way you think I am.
 
For those not familiar, at the end of December, Kevin Baxter, a reporter for the Los Angeles Times, wrote an article about the challenges facing an openly gay professional athlete in football, baseball, basketball and hockey. In the article, Baxter quoted Torii Hunter as saying "For me, as a Christian … I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it's not right," and, "It will be difficult and uncomfortable."
  
Shortly thereafter, Torii Hunter’s son, Torii Hunter Jr. broke his leg during a football practice. The injury was extensive and ultimately required a surgery to fix.
  
On January 1st, Torii Hunter posted a comment on Twitter saying “I’m very disappointed in Kevin Baxter’s article in which my quotes and feelings have been misrepresented. He took two completely separate quotes and made them into one quote that does not express how I feel as a Christian or human being. I have love and respect for all human beings regardless of race, color or sexual orientation.
I am not perfect and try hard to live the best life I can and treat all people with respect. If you know me you know that I am not anti anything and to be portrayed as anti-gay in this article is hurtful and just not true” [sic]
  
On January 2nd, Katrina Hall Hunter (@knutss48) posted on update Twitter saying “Thanks for your prayers. Torii Jr’s surgery went well. He is in recovery. @toriihunter48 @THunterJr”.  
  
Shortly thereafter, Katrina Hall Hunter retweeted a post from some random person saying “maybe your husband shouldn’t be a homophobe and your son wouldn’t be dying.” [sic]
  
That comment made me sick. Such hatred has no business in any civil society at all. It was ignorant, disgusting, and offensive. After reading it, I had to respond so that good people everywhere would not let the poster get away with it.
  
I don’t want to get into the merits of whether or not Torii Hunter’s opinion is right or wrong. Nor do I care to discuss whether Kevin Baxter quoted him out of context to fit his story or not. That’s immaterial to what I want to say.
  
What I do want to discuss is what kind of hatred resides in a person in order to tweet something that mean and spiteful towards Torii Hunter’s son. More importantly, how does that level of hatred do anything to help the discussion about an openly gay athlete playing in professional sports?
  
I have children. I love them very much. As a writer, I know that people are going to disagree with me from time to time. When I put an opinion out there, it is bound to be met with different viewpoints, and not all of them will be in agreement.
  
And, I also know that not all people who disagree with me can do so with logic or intelligence. Sometimes they will resort to name calling. Frankly, it doesn’t bother me if someone calls me or my articles “stupid”, “dumb”, “immature”, etc. Heck, it doesn’t bother me if they call me any of those names or worse (although I prefer it when people just focus on the article rather than making it personal).
  
But, if they attack my family in their hatred, that is a whole different subject. My family is off limits. They aren’t putting themselves out there like I am. They aren’t a part of the discussion, so there is never any good reason to bring them into it. If someone does, s/he has crossed a line.
  
One of the main reasons why I work so hard to provide all the content and to do the interviews is to share a bit of the players with you, the fans. For most of my life, the coverage that I got as a fan was filtered through the perspective of a professional sports writer—a so-called dispassionate member of the media. It didn’t give me the perspective that I wanted and rarely did I get all the information that I wanted as a fan.
  
So far, I think that I and AngelsWin.com have done a great job providing that level of content. However, when idiotic members of the public post comments like that, even on something like Twitter, it makes it harder for me to gain trust with the players. It makes it that much harder for them to be willing to share their lives with us, which ironically, is what we as fans want them to do.
  
Already Angels fans have seen this happen on more than one occasion. Last year, Jerome Williams received death threats for no reason at all. Bobby Wilson, after receiving numerous malicious comments on Twitter abandoned it. In both cases, it was the fans who ultimately lost out, as both players withdrew from the fans (although to both of their credit, both were willing to do interviews with me as a voice for the fans).
  
Personally, I can tell you that more than one player reads our site or has family members who do. I have been told be some players that it’s hard at first to see the negativity that they can generate with a bad outing or because of some physical attribute. Players are human beings, and fans need to remember that when they post some flip or trivial comment about them.
  
As for Torii Hunter, let me tell you about the man I got to know over the years in Anaheim. He is a good man and a Christian man. He was generous with his time, and always willing to give me a quote or to talk about a story. Unlike some players who reserve their time for the major networks, Torii went out of his way to give fans a glimpse into his life and his concerns. During my first appearance in the Angels clubhouse, it was Torii Hunter who helped break the ice by talking to me when others would not to show that I was on the level.
  
Looking at what Torii Hunter was quoted as saying, it’s hard for me to find fault with it. In general, I found that it takes the strongest and humblest of men to admit their difficulties and limitations. He never said he wouldn’t welcome an openly gay teammate; nor did he say that he was opposed to such a person. Instead, he honestly spoke about how it would be difficult for him to deal with it. It did not show bigotry; it reflected how a man honestly thought about a challenging issue that he had not yet confronted. It certainly did not show or warrant the level of hatred that he got in return about his son.
  
In a civil society, people must remember that there are boundaries and lines that they should not cross. Oliver Wendell Holmes said that “My right to move my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins.” It is an extension of the Golden Rule: Do onto others as you would have them do unto you.
  
With today’s technology, civil discourse means not saying things online or anonymously that one wouldn’t say to that person’s face or by name. Unfortunately, thanks to technology, it is far easier far people hurt someone with their comments than ever before. With a few key strokes, an idiot can send a comment to thousands that can never be taken back or undone. And the damage that they can do can be far worse than ever before.
  
Fans should want to get to know their players. But, they should always remember that they are human. When players talk about their issues and challenges, it is no less difficult for them because they are superstars. The have emotions and feelings, and are entitled to their opinions. They—like us—have things that make them uncomfortable. How one responds in an uncomfortable situation is the true test of his or her character.
  
Fans should also remember that if they want to know more about what their stars believe, then they can’t be upset if the player’s values aren’t always the same as theirs. In a country with closely divided elections, many religions, racial groups, etc., the odds of two people sharing all the same beliefs are essentially nil.
  
If you, as a fan, wish to engage in civil discourse with a player, it is okay. It may be possible to change an opinion that way. But, remember, there are lines that should never be crossed, regardless of the issue. Attacking the person, particularly his or her family, is one of those lines that should never be crossed. If you have any desire to truly change a person’s beliefs, it can only happen if you maintain a proper level of civility.
  
Ultimately, the underlying issue here will resolve itself. Within the next few years, I am sure that there will be an openly gay professional baseball player. Baseball is, after all, is the sport of Jackie Robinson and will rise the challenges of the times.
  
But, when people make comments attacking a player’s family, it does nothing to help advance the cause. When players are afraid about being honest about their beliefs and feelings, it becomes that much harder to change their attitudes because they will harden their hearts out of fear for their safety. And then no real discourse or change can occur.

 



Edited by Dave Saltzer 2013-01-03 1:55 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Paco
Posted 2013-01-03 2:18 AM (#1915020 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter


Is that also the Son who was accused of rape?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
HaloMagic
Posted 2013-01-03 2:40 AM (#1915022 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 5418

No. Torii Hunter Jr. broke his leg. Darius McClinton-Hunter is the son that was accused. The girl eventually recanted her story, for what it's worth.

Edited by HaloMagic 2013-01-03 2:42 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Angelsjunky
Posted 2013-01-03 6:48 AM (#1915049 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7388

Location: Limbo
Nice article Dave and I appreciate and generally agree with your sentiment. Obviously that was a stupid, insensitive remark and doesn't really deserve the time and attention that you gave it.

That said, I feel that you're whitewashing Torii's comments a bit. Maybe you don't find them offensive or problematic, but he said what he said and expressed a kind of intolerance and homophobia that is increasingly (and, imo, thankfully) becoming less and less culturally accepted.

See, the problem is that many who advocate this kind of homophobia don't actually practice the Golden Rule so they treat gays like they have a disease, that something intrinsic to their being is sinful. Imagine that for a moment. Imagine that millions of people believed that you were inherently sinful because of something that is so deeply natural to you.

So obviously Torii and his family didn't deserve that ridiculous twitter comment, but nor did the millions of gay people--and the likely dozens or hundreds of gay athletes--deserve to hear Torii voice his homophobia and ignorance. So when you say that you find no fault in what Torii was quoted as saying, you're missing the mark in my opinion. He's not humbly admitting his "difficulties and limitations," he's expressing his belief that homosexuality is "not right." In other words, he's making a moral judgment about a group of millions of people based upon their sexual preference.

Its one thing saying "I don't feel comfortable being naked in front of a man that might find me attractive," and another saying "homosexuality is not right."

Torii has the right to believe what he wants to believe, and he also has the right to express his belief, but he also needs to realize that there are going to be repercussions, just or unjust.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Wallerrrr
Posted 2013-01-03 6:53 AM (#1915052 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 12061

Location: CA
"whitewashing"

racist!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Wallerrrr
Posted 2013-01-03 6:55 AM (#1915054 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 12061

Location: CA
btw Dave. nice read.
You brought up some good points. I agree with what you wrote...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Rochambeau
Posted 2013-01-03 7:23 AM (#1915067 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Big League Angels

Posts: 1200

Location: W. BFE
Tremendous article, David.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
nato2k
Posted 2013-01-03 7:47 AM (#1915072 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 13903

Location: Arcadia
You have to have incredible thick skin to be an athlete and be on social media. The things that people say to these guys is abhorrent.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Soto Speaks
Posted 2013-01-03 8:23 AM (#1915087 - in reply to #1915072)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Location: Irvine
nato2k - 2013-01-03 7:47 AM

You have to have incredible thick skin to be an athlete and be on social media. The things that people say to these guys is abhorrent.


Athletes, politicians, singers, film and tv stars, anyone in the public eye.

As CJ Wilson said the other day, there are a ton of keyboard commandos out there.
Dana White calls them Twitter tough guys.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
LightTheHalo
Posted 2013-01-03 8:24 AM (#1915088 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 21391

A lot of very, very, very, very, very stupid people have Twitter accounts.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Wallerrrr
Posted 2013-01-03 8:25 AM (#1915090 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 12061

Location: CA
lol @ keyboard commandos...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
nato2k
Posted 2013-01-03 8:25 AM (#1915091 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 13903

Location: Arcadia
I excel at being a keyboard commando.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
gotbeer
Posted 2013-01-03 9:42 AM (#1915172 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 20685

If you don't want to bring your private life into it, don't bring your private life into the public social media.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Geoff Stoddart
Posted 2013-01-03 9:45 AM (#1915175 - in reply to #1915088)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Location: Colorado
LightTheHalo - 2013-01-03 9:24 AM

A lot of very, very, very, very, very stupid people have Twitter accounts.



To be fair to Twitter, there are a lot of stupid people that have AW accounts.





Top of the page Bottom of the page
kyhalo
Posted 2013-01-03 9:49 AM (#1915184 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Posts: 39

"Fans should also remember that if they want to know more about what their stars believe, then they can’t be upset if the player’s values aren’t always the same as theirs. In a country with closely divided elections, many religions, racial groups, etc., the odds of two people sharing all the same beliefs are essentially nil."

This. Times a million. Stop treating athletes (and celebrities in general) as anything more than people with talents that entertain us.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
katierose31
Posted 2013-01-03 9:53 AM (#1915189 - in reply to #1915049)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 9790

Location: San Diego

Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 6:48 AM Nice article Dave and I appreciate and generally agree with your sentiment. Obviously that was a stupid, insensitive remark and doesn't really deserve the time and attention that you gave it. That said, I feel that you're whitewashing Torii's comments a bit. Maybe you don't find them offensive or problematic, but he said what he said and expressed a kind of intolerance and homophobia that is increasingly (and, imo, thankfully) becoming less and less culturally accepted. See, the problem is that many who advocate this kind of homophobia don't actually practice the Golden Rule so they treat gays like they have a disease, that something intrinsic to their being is sinful. Imagine that for a moment. Imagine that millions of people believed that you were inherently sinful because of something that is so deeply natural to you. So obviously Torii and his family didn't deserve that ridiculous twitter comment, but nor did the millions of gay people--and the likely dozens or hundreds of gay athletes--deserve to hear Torii voice his homophobia and ignorance. So when you say that you find no fault in what Torii was quoted as saying, you're missing the mark in my opinion. He's not humbly admitting his "difficulties and limitations," he's expressing his belief that homosexuality is "not right." In other words, he's making a moral judgment about a group of millions of people based upon their sexual preference. Its one thing saying "I don't feel comfortable being naked in front of a man that might find me attractive," and another saying "homosexuality is not right." Torii has the right to believe what he wants to believe, and he also has the right to express his belief, but he also needs to realize that there are going to be repercussions, just or unjust.

So you don't believe Torii's response to the article?

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Brian Ilten
Posted 2013-01-03 9:54 AM (#1915190 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7680

Location: Sec 526 Angel Stadium
Great article David. Its something that a lot of folks who read AngelsWin need to read.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Chuck Richter
Posted 2013-01-03 9:58 AM (#1915197 - in reply to #1915175)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Famer

Posts: 29182

Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @
Geoff Stoddart - 2013-01-03 9:45 AM

LightTheHalo - 2013-01-03 9:24 AM

A lot of very, very, very, very, very stupid people have Twitter accounts.



To be fair to Twitter, there are a lot of stupid people that have AW accounts.



and Facebook..

Assholes and those who overreact will find any outlet to go on the attack.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Angelsjunky
Posted 2013-01-03 10:01 AM (#1915202 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7388

Location: Limbo
Katie, I think he's back-tracking a bit. He clearly said that homosexuality "is not right" and that because of his religious beliefs he feels uncomfortable sharing the locker room with a gay man, but on the other hand, in his response, that he has "love and respect for all human beings." Maybe he doesn't realize the contradiction there.

So I believe that he thinks he respects everyone but his view that homosexuality "is not right" is a kind of disrespect, whether he believes so or not, sort of like the saying "Love the sinner, hate the sin" - which is actually rather hateful, if in a secondary way ("I love you but believe that something intrinsic to your being is not right and is sinful").

I'm not particularly offended or angry at Torii, partially because I don't look to him for cultural, intellectual or spiritual guidance. He's a ballplayer and was a key part of the Angels over the last half decade, so I "love and respect" him for that. But I disagree with his perspective on homosexuality and find his view to be ignorant and out-dated.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Wallerrrr
Posted 2013-01-03 10:12 AM (#1915212 - in reply to #1915202)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 12061

Location: CA

Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 10:01 AM

Katie, I think he's back-tracking a bit. He clearly said that homosexuality "is not right" and that because of his religious beliefs he feels uncomfortable sharing the locker room with a gay man, but on the other hand, in his response, that he has "love and respect for all human beings." Maybe he doesn't realize the contradiction there.

So I believe that he thinks he respects everyone but his view that homosexuality "is not right" is a kind of disrespect, whether he believes so or not, sort of like the saying "Love the sinner, hate the sin" - which is actually rather hateful, if in a secondary way ("I love you but believe that something intrinsic to your being is not right and is sinful").

I'm not particularly offended or angry at Torii, partially because I don't look to him for cultural, intellectual or spiritual guidance. He's a ballplayer and was a key part of the Angels over the last half decade, so I "love and respect" him for that. But I disagree with his perspective on homosexuality and find his view to be ignorant and out-dated.

 

He is entitled to his views and opinions..even if people don’t agree with them. He has done countless hours of service in the community, worked with countless charities, and done many other unnoticed good deeds. He served admirably as the face of the Angels for five seasons. This comment doesn’t make him any less of a kick ass person.

 

 

Amazing how many people are dissecting a misquote.

 

 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
katierose31
Posted 2013-01-03 10:43 AM (#1915248 - in reply to #1915175)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 9790

Location: San Diego

Geoff Stoddart - 2013-01-03 9:45 AM
LightTheHalo - 2013-01-03 9:24 AM A lot of very, very, very, very, very stupid people have Twitter accounts.
To be fair to Twitter, there are a lot of stupid people that have AW accounts.

Wallerr isn't stupid, he's just special

Top of the page Bottom of the page
the dude abides
Posted 2013-01-03 10:44 AM (#1915249 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Location: Peru
lol @ "misquote".

Seems to happen a lot to Torii.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
kyhalo
Posted 2013-01-03 10:44 AM (#1915250 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Posts: 39

Even if it wasn't a misquote....so he doesn't feel comfortable around homosexuals. That's his loss. And more importantly, his right. As long as he doesn't have the power to make others conform to his beliefs, who cares? If Angels management said "we are allowing gay players to shower with straight players", Torii would have to suck it up and go on with life, just like players had to adjust to female reporters in the locker room, and to black players 60 years ago, etc. Torii is just a baseball player. He's not Al Campanis.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
katierose31
Posted 2013-01-03 10:45 AM (#1915251 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 9790

Location: San Diego
I feel like I'm hearing the same things over and over and over and over and over and over
Top of the page Bottom of the page
mtangelsfan
Posted 2013-01-03 10:47 AM (#1915252 - in reply to #1915202)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 11:01 AM Katie, I think he's back-tracking a bit. He clearly said that homosexuality "is not right" and that because of his religious beliefs he feels uncomfortable sharing the locker room with a gay man, but on the other hand, in his response, that he has "love and respect for all human beings." Maybe he doesn't realize the contradiction there. So I believe that he thinks he respects everyone but his view that homosexuality "is not right" is a kind of disrespect, whether he believes so or not, sort of like the saying "Love the sinner, hate the sin" - which is actually rather hateful, if in a secondary way ("I love you but believe that something intrinsic to your being is not right and is sinful"). I'm not particularly offended or angry at Torii, partially because I don't look to him for cultural, intellectual or spiritual guidance. He's a ballplayer and was a key part of the Angels over the last half decade, so I "love and respect" him for that. But I disagree with his perspective on homosexuality and find his view to be ignorant and out-dated.

There is absolutely zero contradiction there. 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
pbonetheman
Posted 2013-01-03 10:51 AM (#1915255 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Orem Owlz

Posts: 276

Great article. I agree an athlete or any other person does not deserve to be the recipient of hateful comments on sites like twitter, especially when it comes to family. However, once you are out there, you are open for public scrutiny (which sometimes manifests itself in hate). Millions of people are on twitter. Plenty of those millions are jack asses, immature, or attention seekers. Comments such as those directed towards Jerome Williams or Katrina Hunter will never stop. I feel that retweeting these hateful comments is a sort of success for the those who said it in the first place. Though it might be easy for me to say, but I feel these celebrities need to delete the offending message from their timeline and move on knowing they are targets simply because of who they are.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Angelsjunky
Posted 2013-01-03 10:51 AM (#1915257 - in reply to #1915212)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7388

Location: Limbo

Wallerrrr - 2013-01-03 1:12 PMHe is entitled to his views and opinions..even if people don’t agree with them.[/quote]

This is basically a truism, Wallerrrr - and it applies for all of us.

Wallerrrr - 2013-01-03 1:12 PM He has done countless hours of service in the community, worked with countless charities, and done many other unnoticed good deeds. He served admirably as the face of the Angels for five seasons. This comment doesn’t make him any less of a kick ass person.

I agree, just as those things you mention don't make him any less ignorant with regards to homosexuality. We all have flaws, we are all ignorant in one way or another. The question is whether we're open to be more than what we are and see the limitations of our worldview and how it might negatively impact others.

Wallerrrr - 2013-01-03 1:12 PMAmazing how many people are dissecting a misquote.

Was he mis-quoted, as in the words Baxter attributed to him were not his actual words? Or did Baxter simply take them out of context and combine them in a way that Torii didn't like?

Torii said what he said - as far as I can tell, those words actually came from his mouth. He actually said that homosexuality "isn't right." Now you may agree or disagree, but that's what he said. 

 

 

 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Angelsjunky
Posted 2013-01-03 10:54 AM (#1915260 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7388

Location: Limbo
mtangelsfan, I think Montanans are inherently sinful and "not right" in their lifestyles, but I love and respect them as human beings.

No contradiction?

Sure, I could love Montanans for simply being humans, but there is an edge of disrespect if I see their entire way of being as being "not right" - at least from their perspective, and that is the key.

In other words, if you were a gay baseball player, would you feel loved and respected by Torii based upon his original comments?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
mtangelsfan
Posted 2013-01-03 10:56 AM (#1915261 - in reply to #1915260)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




I would base that on how I was actually treated.  Not based off of a press release.

I'll keep the argument just that because it's not a good topic for the main forum not to mention the conversation has been done ad-nauseum.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
gotbeer
Posted 2013-01-03 10:59 AM (#1915264 - in reply to #1915250)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 20685

kyhalo - 2013-01-03 10:44 AM

As long as he doesn't have the power to make others conform to his beliefs, who cares?


But you can also say, in a way, he is using his power in his beliefs to keep homosexuals in the closet. Would anyone on the Tigers dare come out after Torii said that? A Verlander or a Fielder or a Cabrera, sure. (not saying they are, although Cabrera sure seems like he hates women) But would any of the 21 other players, which is more likely to have a homosexual among them, be more likely come out after one of the veterans of the league spoke against it?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Brian Ilten
Posted 2013-01-03 10:59 AM (#1915265 - in reply to #1915260)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7680

Location: Sec 526 Angel Stadium
Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 10:54 AM

mtangelsfan, I think Montanans are inherently sinful and "not right" in their lifestyles, but I love and respect them as human beings.

No contradiction?

Sure, I could love Montanans for simply being humans, but there is an edge of disrespect if I see their entire way of being as being "not right" - at least from their perspective, and that is the key.

In other words, if you were a gay baseball player, would you feel loved and respected by Torii based upon his original comments?



AJ - not wanting to get religious here, but if perhaps if you better understood some Christians beliefs you would understand why there is no contradiction.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Geoff Stoddart
Posted 2013-01-03 11:08 AM (#1915270 - in reply to #1915197)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Location: Colorado
Chuck Richter - 2013-01-03 10:58 AM

Geoff Stoddart - 2013-01-03 9:45 AM

LightTheHalo - 2013-01-03 9:24 AM

A lot of very, very, very, very, very stupid people have Twitter accounts.



To be fair to Twitter, there are a lot of stupid people that have AW accounts.



and Facebook..

Assholes and those who overreact will find any outlet to go on the attack.



Bingo



Top of the page Bottom of the page
Geoff Stoddart
Posted 2013-01-03 11:10 AM (#1915272 - in reply to #1915251)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Location: Colorado
katierose31 - 2013-01-03 11:45 AM

I feel like I'm hearing the same things over and over and over and over and over and over


That Wallerr is stupid?





Top of the page Bottom of the page
Brian Ilten
Posted 2013-01-03 11:14 AM (#1915277 - in reply to #1915264)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7680

Location: Sec 526 Angel Stadium
gotbeer - 2013-01-03 10:59 AM

kyhalo - 2013-01-03 10:44 AM

As long as he doesn't have the power to make others conform to his beliefs, who cares?


But you can also say, in a way, he is using his power in his beliefs to keep homosexuals in the closet. Would anyone on the Tigers dare come out after Torii said that? A Verlander or a Fielder or a Cabrera, sure. (not saying they are, although Cabrera sure seems like he hates women) But would any of the 21 other players, which is more likely to have a homosexual among them, be more likely come out after one of the veterans of the league spoke against it?



Oh brother. Seriously, you are going to try and make the argument that Torii Hunter is keep folks in the closet?? Please, this isn't the 1940's - hell it isn't even the 1980's. You walk anywhere now a days and you see homosexual PDAs. If that is what Torii is trying to do, he is failing miserably.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Angelsjunky
Posted 2013-01-03 11:16 AM (#1915279 - in reply to #1915265)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7388

Location: Limbo

Brian Ilten - 2013-01-03 1:59 PM
Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 10:54 AM mtangelsfan, I think Montanans are inherently sinful and "not right" in their lifestyles, but I love and respect them as human beings. No contradiction? Sure, I could love Montanans for simply being humans, but there is an edge of disrespect if I see their entire way of being as being "not right" - at least from their perspective, and that is the key. In other words, if you were a gay baseball player, would you feel loved and respected by Torii based upon his original comments?
AJ - not wanting to get religious here, but if perhaps if you better understood some Christians beliefs you would understand why there is no contradiction.

Love the sinner, hate the sin, right? Or something else?

Top of the page Bottom of the page
kyhalo
Posted 2013-01-03 11:21 AM (#1915283 - in reply to #1915264)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Posts: 39

gotbeer - 2013-01-03 10:59 AM

kyhalo - 2013-01-03 10:44 AM

As long as he doesn't have the power to make others conform to his beliefs, who cares?


But you can also say, in a way, he is using his power in his beliefs to keep homosexuals in the closet. Would anyone on the Tigers dare come out after Torii said that? A Verlander or a Fielder or a Cabrera, sure. (not saying they are, although Cabrera sure seems like he hates women) But would any of the 21 other players, which is more likely to have a homosexual among them, be more likely come out after one of the veterans of the league spoke against it?


Why do they have to come out? Most locker rooms are extremely mysoginist (sp?). Players talk about strip clubs. They talk about the crazy b*tch who won't leave them alone. They talk about which female celebrities they most want to bang. So the gay guy comes out of the closet. How will that change things? He's still not going to be one of the guys, regardless. Because those guys have money and they are having the time of their lives where women are concerned. If you just keep to yourself and let them have their fun, they probably don't care what you do as long as you play well on the field.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Brian Ilten
Posted 2013-01-03 11:21 AM (#1915284 - in reply to #1915279)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7680

Location: Sec 526 Angel Stadium
Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 11:16 AM

Brian Ilten - 2013-01-03 1:59 PM
Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 10:54 AM mtangelsfan, I think Montanans are inherently sinful and "not right" in their lifestyles, but I love and respect them as human beings. No contradiction? Sure, I could love Montanans for simply being humans, but there is an edge of disrespect if I see their entire way of being as being "not right" - at least from their perspective, and that is the key. In other words, if you were a gay baseball player, would you feel loved and respected by Torii based upon his original comments?
AJ - not wanting to get religious here, but if perhaps if you better understood some Christians beliefs you would understand why there is no contradiction.

Love the sinner, hate the sin, right? Or something else?




Yep... thats it. I know that it isn't any easy concept to grasp. I don't know your relationship with Christ. But my relationship with Him helps me to grasp it better I believe.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Angelsjunky
Posted 2013-01-03 11:28 AM (#1915287 - in reply to #1915284)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7388

Location: Limbo
Brian Ilten - 2013-01-03 2:21 PM
Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 11:16 AM

Brian Ilten - 2013-01-03 1:59 PM
Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 10:54 AM mtangelsfan, I think Montanans are inherently sinful and "not right" in their lifestyles, but I love and respect them as human beings. No contradiction? Sure, I could love Montanans for simply being humans, but there is an edge of disrespect if I see their entire way of being as being "not right" - at least from their perspective, and that is the key. In other words, if you were a gay baseball player, would you feel loved and respected by Torii based upon his original comments?
AJ - not wanting to get religious here, but if perhaps if you better understood some Christians beliefs you would understand why there is no contradiction.

Love the sinner, hate the sin, right? Or something else?

Yep... thats it. I know that it isn't any easy concept to grasp. I don't know your relationship with Christ. But my relationship with Him helps me to grasp it better I believe.

I grasp the concept and I appreciate the perspective that one can love someone and not love every aspect about them, including what is "sinful" (hey, I'm married!). I just don't like how it is often applied, and that the notion of what is "sin" and what is not is rather narrow and has more to do with the individual than it does with some kind of absolute divine law. In other words, I don't think God or Jesus views homosexuality as sin, I think you do.

 
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Blarg
Posted 2013-01-03 11:30 AM (#1915290 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: RE: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 32057

AJ are there any social situations or work related interactions that you would feel uncomfortable about participating in? Say for example public speaking, many people are deathly afraid of a podium and microphone. Or how about having to discipline and employee, maybe even fire them? Is that an uneasy situation you have been involved in or do not wish to being involved in?

Now why would that be any different than any other level of social interaction in a situation that you are either not trained in handlng or have some fear of being pushed into, like facing a situation where you are presented with one of your fears without choice.

Torii said I. He said it was personal because of his teaching and understandings presented to him growing up. He admitted to a weakness on his own part. "I will be uncomfortable..." It was a confession, not a declaration.

That is where you are wrong. You state he is against gays, he says he personaly has a problem with the situation. Just like you may not want to present yourself in front of a crowd at a microphone, you don't hate the crowd, you don't like the situation thrust upon you. You feel uncomfortable.

Of course I am making assumptions you don't like public speaking because of crowds and won't do it under any circumstances. Just like...


Top of the page Bottom of the page
Angelsjunky
Posted 2013-01-03 11:37 AM (#1915297 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7388

Location: Limbo
I appreciate that, Blarg, and would like to believe that's where Torii is coming from. I totally get that he feels uncomfortable with it, perhaps through lack of exposure, upbringing, etc. Nothing wrong or shameful about that. But to be clear, he DID say that homosexuality is "not right." And yes, he is admitting that is what he was taught to believe, so maybe he's open to change. And of course he isn't saying gays are evil or he hates them.

I'm not saying that Torii is a bad guy - from what I gather he's a good guy. I also don't like how things get out of hand via twitter, journalists taking statements out of context, etc - which is why I told Brian I liked and generally agreed with his blog. But all of that doesn't change the fact that Torii said homosexual "is not right." I can live with him saying and believing that, but it DOES have an impact, it does matter - especially if you're gay.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Geoff Stoddart
Posted 2013-01-03 11:45 AM (#1915305 - in reply to #1915297)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Location: Colorado
Great piece, Dave. Very well thought out and communicated.




Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mulwin444
Posted 2013-01-03 11:50 AM (#1915307 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 9565

Unless Torii's belief that homosexuality is wrong/sinful is preventing gay people from living their life, I don't understand what the issue is here. He can believe what he wants and doesn't have to qualify it to people.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Troll Daddy
Posted 2013-01-03 11:52 AM (#1915310 - in reply to #1915297)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Location: Costa Mesa
I don't get what all the commotion is about unless you feel a athlete should keep his personal opinions to himself. Personally I have no problem with Torii's opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it. There are many beautiful gay men and women who are also Christians.

Would any of you have a problem showering with a known guy man? maybe find it difficult? what if you catch him staring at your junk?



Top of the page Bottom of the page
mtangelsfan
Posted 2013-01-03 11:54 AM (#1915314 - in reply to #1915297)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter




Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 12:37 PM I appreciate that, Blarg, and would like to believe that's where Torii is coming from. I totally get that he feels uncomfortable with it, perhaps through lack of exposure, upbringing, etc. Nothing wrong or shameful about that. But to be clear, he DID say that homosexuality is "not right." And yes, he is admitting that is what he was taught to believe, so maybe he's open to change. And of course he isn't saying gays are evil or he hates them. I'm not saying that Torii is a bad guy - from what I gather he's a good guy. I also don't like how things get out of hand via twitter, journalists taking statements out of context, etc - which is why I told Brian I liked and generally agreed with his blog. But all of that doesn't change the fact that Torii said homosexual "is not right." I can live with him saying and believing that, but it DOES have an impact, it does matter - especially if you're gay.

What should matter his words or his actions?  If he does treat them badly, that is on him and it should be interpreted that way.  However, if he treats them well, then what does it matter that he thinks it wrong?  We have gotten to the point in society where words speak louder than actions.  

I'm going to judge people on what they do way more than what they say.  

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Angelsjunky
Posted 2013-01-03 11:57 AM (#1915317 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7388

Location: Limbo
I can agree with that, mt, although I'd prefer not to judge at all! At least not too stringently. Judge not lest ye be judged...

Troll Daddy, is that a proposition? Are you offering to take a shower with any manly takers?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Blarg
Posted 2013-01-03 11:58 AM (#1915319 - in reply to #1915297)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 32057

He said his teaching said it was not right. Did you notice the ... between one statement and the next? In writing that is a declaration that something is left out, something the writer felt was not necessary but that in itself may have been the linchpin between the assumption he has something against gays in baseball and his religious upbringing.

The writer chose to leave something out but you are more than willing to bridge that gap with what you want to push an agenda. Take away agendas and this is simply someone saying he has never faced a situation and would be uncomfortable with it because he has nothing that puts it into perspective. In fact his only knowledge comes from a single source and admits to that.


Top of the page Bottom of the page
Blarg
Posted 2013-01-03 11:59 AM (#1915324 - in reply to #1915317)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 32057

Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 11:57 AM

I can agree with that, mt, although I'd prefer not to judge at all! At least not too stringently. Judge not lest ye be judged...

Troll Daddy, is that a proposition? Are you offering to take a shower with any manly takers?
Don't get your hopes up.





Top of the page Bottom of the page
laagamer
Posted 2013-01-03 12:02 PM (#1915328 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: RE: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



San Bernadino 66'ers

Posts: 459

Touching sentiments, but Torii put his foot in his mouth and now he has to pay for it.

Religious people...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Brian Ilten
Posted 2013-01-03 12:03 PM (#1915330 - in reply to #1915287)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7680

Location: Sec 526 Angel Stadium
Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 11:28 AM

Brian Ilten - 2013-01-03 2:21 PM
Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 11:16 AM

Brian Ilten - 2013-01-03 1:59 PM
Angelsjunky - 2013-01-03 10:54 AM mtangelsfan, I think Montanans are inherently sinful and "not right" in their lifestyles, but I love and respect them as human beings. No contradiction? Sure, I could love Montanans for simply being humans, but there is an edge of disrespect if I see their entire way of being as being "not right" - at least from their perspective, and that is the key. In other words, if you were a gay baseball player, would you feel loved and respected by Torii based upon his original comments?
AJ - not wanting to get religious here, but if perhaps if you better understood some Christians beliefs you would understand why there is no contradiction.

Love the sinner, hate the sin, right? Or something else?

Yep... thats it. I know that it isn't any easy concept to grasp. I don't know your relationship with Christ. But my relationship with Him helps me to grasp it better I believe.

I grasp the concept and I appreciate the perspective that one can love someone and not love every aspect about them, including what is "sinful" (hey, I'm married!). I just don't like how it is often applied, and that the notion of what is "sin" and what is not is rather narrow and has more to do with the individual than it does with some kind of absolute divine law. In other words, I don't think God or Jesus views homosexuality as sin, I think you do.

 



The Bible, which I believe to be the Word of God, says homosexuality is a sin... even in the New Testament. (Rom 1:18-31)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Angelsjunky
Posted 2013-01-03 12:04 PM (#1915332 - in reply to #1915019)
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse and Torii Hunter



Hall of Fame

Posts: 7388

Location: Limbo
Blarg, I hear you. It is very deceptive on Baxter's part and, like you said, we're left to bridge the gap. I could see either interpretation being right: Torii could be saying what you say he's saying, that all he knows is his upbringing which according to that it is wrong; or he could be saying that he thinks its wrong because of the way he was raised. It is a subtle but crucial difference and I don't think we have enough to go on either way.

Actually, truth be told Torii himself may not know which is closer to truth - whether he actually still believes what he was taught to believe. At the least it sounds like he's willing to question his learned beliefs, which speaks a lot to his character.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1 2 3 4 5
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

Registered to: Angelswin.com
(Delete all cookies set by this site)