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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ |
By Chuck Richter - AngelsWin.com Executive Editor
If you could put together your best Angels all-time lineup to go against other teams all time lineups in a head to head format, what would it look like?
I'm basing mine off best all time seasons with the Halos and who I like for a full season. Your criteria can be totally different however, as you may have a crystal ball and want Peter Bourjos (2011) over Darin Erstad in centerfield, or Fred Lynn's All Star season with the Halos over Erstad's 2000 campaign. Some of you may want Garret Anderson in LF over Brian Downing or move Vlad to DH over Baylor and use Tim Salmon (1995) in right field. Some could argue Troy Glaus (2000) over Doug DeCinces (1982), Joyner's (1986) or Carew (1983) over Kendry Morales' 2009 campaign. etc. etc.
Here's mine:
Starting Lineup CF Darin Erstad (2000) LF Brian Downing (1987) RF Vladimir Guerrero (2004) DH Don Baylor (1979) 1B Kendry Morales (2009) 2B Bobby Grich (1979) 3B Doug DeCinces (1982) C Lance Parrish (1990) SS Jim Fergosi (1970)
Reserves: Tim Salmon, Garret Anderson, Mike Napoli, Wally Joyner, Troy Glaus and Chone Figgins
Starting Pitchers SP Nolan Ryan (1972, 1973) SP Frank Tanana (1975) SP Jered Weaver (2010) SP Chuck Finley (1990) SP Mike Witt (1986)
Relief Pitchers RP Frankie Rodriguez (2006, 2008) RP Troy Percival (1996, 2002) RP Scot Shields (2005) RP Bryan Harvey (1991) RP Darren Oliver (2009)
Owner: Arte Moreno Manager: Mike Scioscia Bench Coach: Joe Maddon Pitching Coach: Bud Black |
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 19315
| Rod Carew 1B
Jim Edmonds CF
Vladimir Guerrero RF
Garrett Anderson LF
Tim Salmon DH
Bobby Grich 2B
Troy Glaus 3B
Jim Fergosi SS
Lance Parrish C
Nolan Ryan
Frank Tanana
Mike Witt
John Lackey
Chuck Finley
RP Francisco Rodriguez
RP Troy Percival
RP Scot Shields
RP Brendan Donnelly
RP Lee Smith (Hey, he was an Angel at one point)
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ | Jim Edmonds had good seasons with the Halos in 95, 96 and 98. But, I'd still go with Erstad's 2000 season. He was an absolute stud that year!
John Lackey over Jered Weaver huh? |
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| tdawg87 - 2011-03-14 11:40 AM Rod Carew 1B Jim Edmonds CF Vladimir Guerrero RF Garrett Anderson LF Tim Salmon DH Bobby Grich 2B Troy Glaus 3B Jim Fergosi SS Lance Parrish C Nolan Ryan Frank Tanana Mike Witt John Lackey Chuck Finley RP Francisco Rodriguez RP Troy Percival RP Scot Shields RP Brendan Donnelly RP Lee Smith (Hey, he was an Angel at one point) I actually had damn near the same roster. |
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 19315
| Chuck - 2011-03-14 11:45 AM
Jim Edmonds had good seasons with the Halos in 95, 96 and 98. But, I'd still go with Erstad's 2000 season. He was an absolute stud that year!
John Lackey over Jered Weaver huh?
Yeah I just went with the overall numbers instead of specific seasons.
I think Jered has at least another season or two to prove he is a better pitcher than Lackey. If he picks up where he left off last season that won't be too hard. |
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 13903
Location: Arcadia | I would include Lackey for one reason. Game 7 2002 WS. Weave has gotten better every season; which is what Lackey did but that performance in game 7 has to put him on the list. |
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ | nato2k - 2011-03-14 11:52 AM
I would include Lackey for one reason. Game 7 2002 WS. Weave has gotten better every season; which is what Lackey did but that performance in game 7 has to put him on the list.
I'm putting together a team that I want to go head to head with other teams' best rosters for an entire season. I thought about Lackey, but I'd take Weaver's stuff over Lackey's right now. Plus, his 2010 season was better than Lackey's best season with the Halos (2007). |
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 50047
| Starting Lineup
CF Darin Erstad (2000)
LF Garret Anderson (2002, 2003) -- not as much OBP as Downing, but more power and better defense, and a little more speed
RF Vladimir Guerrero (2004)
DH Don Baylor (1979)
1B Kendry Morales (2009)
2B Bobby Grich (1979, 1982)
3B Doug DeCinces (1982)
C Lance Parrish (1990)
SS Jim Fergosi (1970)
Reserves: Tim Salmon (1995, 2000), Brian Downing (1979, 1987), Wally Joyner (1987), Troy Glaus (2000) and Chone Figgins (2007)
Starting Pitchers
SP Nolan Ryan (1973)
SP Frank Tanana (1975)
SP Dean Chance (1964)
SP Jered Weaver (2010)
SP John Lackey (2007) -- Third in CY balloting and led the AL in ERA, 3.5 to 1 Ks/BBs ratio
Relief Pitchers
RP Frankie Rodriguez (2006, 2008)
RP Troy Percival (1996, 2002)
RP Scot Shields (2005)
RP Bryan Harvey (1991)
RP Ken Tatum (1969) -- 1.35 ERA in 86 innings
RP Brendan Donnelly (2003) -- 1.58 ERA (ridiculous in 2003)
Owner: Arte Moreno
Manager: Mike Scioscia
Bench Coach: Joe Maddon
Pitching Coach: Bud Black
Edited by Angel Oracle 2011-03-14 2:31 PM
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ | Good stuff, AO. I wanted to be GA's 2003 in there, but it was hard to pass up Downing's league leading 106 walks (vs. 85 strikeouts), along with his 29 home runs and overall hustle and defense in LF. |
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Hall of Fame
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| Thanks Chuck.
Tatum and Donkey both had huge seasons.
GA (2003) and Downing (1987) are really close, but Downing didn't play many games in LF that season (118 DH starts).
I put Downing's 1979 season (.326 BA, nearly top 5 in the AL) as a key bench presence.
Therefore, I pushed Naps off the list (Downing catching in 1979) and kept 6 relievers (therefore keeping Shields' 2005 season on it).
Lackey's 2007 season was really good, and to me does edge out FinToWin's 1990 season, as good as it was ERA wise.
There's already a lefty in Tanana anyway.
I wanted to put DO on there, but teams have won in the past without a lefty reliever (2002 team only having a mediocre Schoeneweis in the pen).
And all of the 6 relievers had better seasons than DO's 2009 season, as good as it was. He does supply mentoring, which is hard to ignore.
The OBP, even with GA, is really good because the BA's were really high.
And GA was as good as we've ever had defensively in LF, especially at handling the LF corner (Rudi never healthy for long enough).
Donkey and Tatum in their best seasons could handle 1 or 2 inning stints just fine.
Shields could handle any role.
LF/RF Leon Wagner's 1962 season (37 homers, 107 rbis, 4th for AL MVP) could also have claimed a spot on the bench.
I changed my original list per the above.
Edited by Angel Oracle 2011-03-14 2:28 PM
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ | Angel Oracle - 2011-03-14 12:23 PM
Thanks Chuck.
Tatum and Donkey both had huge seasons, and now thinking about it I'd keep both and drop Shields (as solid as he was in 2005).
GA (2003) and Downing (1987) are really close, but Downing didn't play many games in LF that season (118 DH starts).
I put Downing's 1979 season (.326 BA, nearly top 5 in the AL) as a key bench presence.
Lackey's 2007 season was really good, and to me does edge out FinToWin's 1990 season, as good as it was ERA wise.
There's already a lefty in Tanana anyway.
Yeah, I wanted Downing's walks in the 2 spot, along with his power. Someone has to get on base so the following MVP's (Guerrero, Baylor) to clean up Erstad and Downing on base. We already have enough power and RBI guys throughout the lineup. That's why I went with Downing.
I'd rather have Shields than Tatum and Donnelly because you need a long man on your roster. Having already three closers (K-Rod, Percy and Harvey) it's good to have situational guys and long men, like Oliver and Shields.
Remember, this is a roster to go head to head with teams throughout the season (and perhaps postseason). |
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 7405
| CF -- Torii Hunter
1B -- Rod Carew'
DH -- Don Baylor
RF -- VLAD
LF -- Garret Anderson
3B -- Troy Glaus (47 HR season)
2B -- Bobby Grich w/ Bobby KNOOP late inning D replacement
SS -- Gary DiSarcina (had to pick him over Fregosi!)
C -- Bob Boone (for the pitching staff)
SP - Nolan Ryan
SP - Andy Messersmith (short Halos career but masterful)
SP - Chuck Finley
SP - Frank Tanana
SP - Jared Weaver
RP -- K-Rod
RP -- Percy
RP -- Scot Shields
RP -- Bryan Harvey
Manager -- Mike Scioscia
Bench Coach: Jim Fregosi
Pitching Coach -- Bud Black
Special Assistant to GM/ Advisor: Bill Rigney (the late Bill Rigney was a great baseball man, good guy to have around)
OWNER: Arte Moreno
HERO: Gene Autry
ALL TIME FUNGO COACH: Jimmie Reese
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ | Wow Disar, Carew over Kendry's 2009 or Joyner's '86? |
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| No Brian Olivares in the rotation? |
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Cedar Rapids (Low-A)
Posts: 336
Location: Eastvale | Napoli? Good list but this one to me brings it down. |
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ | Cuban Missile - 2011-03-14 1:37 PM
Napoli? Good list but this one to me brings it down.
Backup catcher off the bench with pop. I could have gone with Bob Boone, but remember, I am the manager here, not Scioscia. :-) |
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Location: oregon coast | Maybe you guys aren't thinking too much about the old timers, but I can't look at the list of pitchers without including 1964 Dean Chance, 3rd probably right after Tanana. He had a 20-9 record, 1.65 ERA, 1.006 WHIP, won the CYA. Saw him pitch, was a master for awhile-
With that in mind, I'd trade Chance for Witt on Chuck's pitcher's list.
Starting Pitchers
SP Nolan Ryan (1972, 1973)
SP Frank Tanana (1975)
SP Dean Chance (1964)
SP Jered Weaver (2010)
SP Chuck Finley (1990)
Relief Pitchers
RP Frankie Rodriguez (2006, 2008)
RP Troy Percival (1996, 2002)
RP Scot Shields (2005)
RP Bryan Harvey (1991)
RP Donnie Moore (1985) 8-8, 1.92, 1.08 WHIP
Starting Lineup
CF Darin Erstad (2000)
LF Brian Downing (1987)
RF Vladimir Guerrero (2004)
DH Don Baylor (1979)
1B Rod Carew
2B Bobby Grich (1979)
3B Troy Glaus (47 homer season)
C Lance Parrish (1990)
SS Jim Fregosi (1970)
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 50047
| +1 to joeybaseball
I replaced Witt with Chance on my list.
It's hard to ignore the team's first Cy Young winner, who also had a 1.65 ERA and 20 wins that season and something like 11 SHOs.
Witt was rock solid in 1986, and won game 1 of the ALCS with a masterful job.
But the other 5 starters had better seasons, across all categories, than Witt's 1986 season.
Moore had a great 1985 season, but I'll always remember him giving up an 8th inning 5-0 lead in Cleveland on the next to last Saturday of the season.
That might have been the start of the Halos downfall, as they were never the same after that and lost 3 out of 4 in KC to lose the divisional title.
Edited by Angel Oracle 2011-03-14 2:35 PM
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 13434
Location: the 626 | Not one Brad Fullmer or Aaron Sele mention? what is this? |
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| I would add Fullmer to my roster if I expected 5-6 bench clearing brawls in the season. |
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ | Brandon - 2011-03-14 3:06 PM
I would add Fullmer to my roster if I expected 5-6 bench clearing brawls in the season.
Werd! Though, with all the roids he took, he'd pull a hammy running from the dugout to the brawl. |
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 7405
| CHUCK: Carew over Kendry Morales or Wally Joyner???
Well, I thought about Joyner, would have preferred JT Snow (Gold Glove) but went with 3,000 plus hits instead.
Notice I made SURE that Bobby Knoop was on the list!!!!! |
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ | Chuck - 2011-03-14 4:16 PM
Brandon - 2011-03-14 3:06 PM
I would add Fullmer to my roster if I expected 5-6 bench clearing brawls in the season.
Werd! Though, with all the roids he took, he'd pull a hammy running from the dugout to the brawl.
For me, I just went with upside + best seasons as a Halo. |
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ | So, how do you think we match up against some of the better all time AL teams in baseball?
Do we dare say this Angels team could match up against the all-time Yankees and Red Sox rosters? |
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All-Star
Posts: 1783
| good stuff
I also like Discar-perhaps the memory of the choke job after he was injured has elevated his importance to me
Shields is most def a must-he should go down as one of our best pitchers ever
I like Chili Davis at dh but I'm also too young to have seen Baylor
situational lefty? Mike Holtz all the way with that sick slow curve ball
Chone would be a beast bench player too |
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All-Star
Posts: 2042
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes, California | Actually Chuck you got it pretty much right! Downing, DeCinces, Guerrero! Almost exactly what I would have picked... Only one I might have changed is the catcher for Bob Boone! |
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All-Star
Posts: 2042
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes, California | Chuck - 2011-03-15 8:01 AM
So, how do you think we match up against some of the better all time AL teams in baseball?
Do we dare say this Angels team could match up against the all-time Yankees and Red Sox rosters?
Honestly I think our pitching staff (Ryan and Tanana) and our bullpen (led by Shields) would beat an all-star Yankee or Red Sox squad. I think our gritty players would pull it out against some of the great players on those teams. Guerrero alone is one of the best pure hitters in the history of baseball but when you surround him with Erstad, Downing, Morales, etc... you have an absolutely lethal lineup.
I say 'yay' to the Angels over either of those teams!  |
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All-Star
Posts: 1783
| as long as ryan in starting we probably beat any team |
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 7629
| 1B- Carew
2B- Grich
SS- Fregosi
3B- Glaus
C- Boone
LF- GA
CF- Edmonds
RF- VLAD
DH- Baylor
Starting Pitchers:
1. Ryan
2. Tanana
3. Chance
4. Wright
5. Weaver
Bull Pen:
1. K-Rod
2. Percival
3. Harvey
4. Moore
5. Hassler
Bench:
1. Reggie Jackson
2. Downing
3. Parrish
4. Salmon
5. De Cinces
6. Joyner
Other notables on the shuttle between Anaheim and Salt Lake:
Disco Danny Ford, Morales, Lansford, Erstad, Knoop, Burleson, Bostock*, Finley, Lackey, Shields, LaRoche, Tatum, Belinsky, Adenhart*
Oops! Forgot about Bobby Bonds, and Mickey Rivers... POP/Speed for BB Speed for Rivers...
Edited by SO CAL HALOS FAN 2011-03-15 11:10 AM
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ | That's what I'm thinking too. Ryan would blow away Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig IMO. That, plus our offense is solid from top to bottom, plus Salmon, GA, Glaus, Figgins and Joyner off the bench. Booyah! |
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 10258
| Angel Oracle - 2011-03-14 12:23 PM
Thanks Chuck.
Tatum and Donkey both had huge seasons.
GA (2003) and Downing (1987) are really close, but Downing didn't play many games in LF that season (118 DH starts).
I put Downing's 1979 season (.326 BA, nearly top 5 in the AL) as a key bench presence.
Therefore, I pushed Naps off the list (Downing catching in 1979) and kept 6 relievers (therefore keeping Shields' 2005 season on it).
Lackey's 2007 season was really good, and to me does edge out FinToWin's 1990 season, as good as it was ERA wise.
There's already a lefty in Tanana anyway.
I wanted to put DO on there, but teams have won in the past without a lefty reliever (2002 team only having a mediocre Schoeneweis in the pen).
And all of the 6 relievers had better seasons than DO's 2009 season, as good as it was. He does supply mentoring, which is hard to ignore.
The OBP, even with GA, is really good because the BA's were really high.
And GA was as good as we've ever had defensively in LF, especially at handling the LF corner (Rudi never healthy for long enough).
Donkey and Tatum in their best seasons could handle 1 or 2 inning stints just fine.
Shields could handle any role.
LF/RF Leon Wagner's 1962 season (37 homers, 107 rbis, 4th for AL MVP) could also have claimed a spot on the bench.
I changed my original list per the above.
Just curious, who is FintoWin? |
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 29182
Location: AngelsWin.com: Where Angels Fans Are @ | stormngt - 2011-03-15 12:32 PM
Angel Oracle - 2011-03-14 12:23 PM
Thanks Chuck.
Tatum and Donkey both had huge seasons.
GA (2003) and Downing (1987) are really close, but Downing didn't play many games in LF that season (118 DH starts).
I put Downing's 1979 season (.326 BA, nearly top 5 in the AL) as a key bench presence.
Therefore, I pushed Naps off the list (Downing catching in 1979) and kept 6 relievers (therefore keeping Shields' 2005 season on it).
Lackey's 2007 season was really good, and to me does edge out FinToWin's 1990 season, as good as it was ERA wise.
There's already a lefty in Tanana anyway.
I wanted to put DO on there, but teams have won in the past without a lefty reliever (2002 team only having a mediocre Schoeneweis in the pen).
And all of the 6 relievers had better seasons than DO's 2009 season, as good as it was. He does supply mentoring, which is hard to ignore.
The OBP, even with GA, is really good because the BA's were really high.
And GA was as good as we've ever had defensively in LF, especially at handling the LF corner (Rudi never healthy for long enough).
Donkey and Tatum in their best seasons could handle 1 or 2 inning stints just fine.
Shields could handle any role.
LF/RF Leon Wagner's 1962 season (37 homers, 107 rbis, 4th for AL MVP) could also have claimed a spot on the bench.
I changed my original list per the above.
Just curious, who is FintoWin?
Chuck Finley. |
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Posts: 1
| Starting Lineup
CF Darin Erstad (2000)
LF Garrett Anderson (2002)
RF Vladimir Guerrero (2004)
DH Don Baylor (1979)
1B Kendry Morales (2009)
2B Bobby Grich (1979)
3B Chone Figgins (2007)
C Bengie Molina (2005--better D, calls better game than Parrish)
SS Jim Fergosi (1970)
Reserves: Tim Salmon, Brian Downing, Lance Parrish, Wally Joyner, Troy Glaus and Doug DeCinces
Starting Pitchers
SP Nolan Ryan (1972, 1973)
SP Frank Tanana (1975)
SP Jered Weaver (2010)
SP Chuck Finley (1990)
SP Jim Abbott (1991)
Close call: Bartolo Colon (2005)
Relief Pitchers
RP Frankie Rodriguez (2006, 2008)
RP Troy Percival (1996, 2002)
RP Scot Shields (2005)
RP Bryan Harvey (1991)
RP Brendan Donnelly (2003)
Owner: Arte Moreno
Manager: Mike Scioscia
Bench Coach: Joe Maddon
Pitching Coach: Bud Black |
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All-Star
Posts: 1558
| With Nolan starting, great. But after that?? Not so sure guys. I mean, remember that the Yanks all time team would be nothing but legit HOF players. The Babe, Mantle, Gehrig, DiMaggio...I mean, come ON. They've got a 50-60 year advantage on us, minimum.
And I HATE the Yanks....
...but then, we have owned the Yanks of late..... ;) |
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Posts: 42
Location: Chandler,Az | Rod Carew 1B
Jim Fregosi SS
Fred Lynn CF
Reggie Jackson RF
Don Baylor LF
Vlad Guerrero DH
Troy Glaus 3B
Brian Downing C
Bobby Grich 2B
RESERVES:
Wally Joyner
Doug DeCinces
Lyman Bostock
Leon Wagner
Carney Lansford
Bob Boone
STARTERS:
Nolan Ryan
Dean Chance
Frank Tanana
Chuck Finley
Clyde Skeeter Wright
BULLPEN:
Bob Lee
Ryne Duren
Brian Harvey
Troy Percival
Bert Bleyleven {gotta have a spot starter!}
If I have to have a reserve middle infielder,scratch Lansford for Billy Moran {1962}
Edited by halo61 2011-03-18 5:09 PM
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 7388
Location: Limbo | C - Hank Conger (2013)
1B - Kendry Morales (2011)
2B - Howie Kendrick (2011)
SS - Jean Segura (2015)
LF - Mike Trout (2015)
CF - Peter Bourjos (2013)
RF - Randal Grichuk (2016)
DH - Mark Trumbo (2012)
SP - Jered Weaver (2011)
SP - Dan Haren (2011)
SP - Garret Richards (2014)
SP - Tyler Chatwood (2014)
SP - Fabio Martinez Mesa (2015)
CL - Jordan Walden (2013) |
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Hall of Fame
Posts: 7388
Location: Limbo | Seriously, though, I'll do this do ways; first, in terms of "all-time greats" - that is, there total career as an Angel. Later on I will do best seasons by position.
ALL-TIME BEST ANGEL CAREERS
LINEUP
C - Bengie Molina
1B - Wally Joyner
2B - Bobby Grich
SS - Jim Fregosi
3B - Troy Glaus
LF - Brian Downing
CF - Jim Edmonds
RF - Vlad Guerrero
DH - Tim Salmon
Some decisions were quite easy - Grich and Fregosi - some decisions gave me pause but not for long - Downing over Anderson, Salmon over Baylor and Davis, Edmonds over Lynn and Erstad - and some were more difficult - Joyner, Glaus, and Molina. Joyner and Carew were equal offensive players and had similar playing time, but Joyner gets the edge for defense; Glaus was a hair better than DeCinces and played longer. Catcher may be the weakest historical position for the Angels. Bob Boone was a better defense catcher than Molina but Molina a better hitter (although still not that good); the World Championship gives Molina the edge.
ROTATION
SP - Chuck Finley
SP - Nolan Ryan
SP - Frank Tanana
SP - John Lackey
SP - Dean Chance
The rotation is a bit trickier. Finley and Ryan are locks - not just because of numbers of games started (Finley started 379, 91 more than the second highest total and almost three times Weaver's 144), but also because of performance. After that it gets tricky and you have a whole slew of candidates. I tried to combine longevity (as an Angel) and performance. Weaver and Chance are similar in terms of excellent performance,with Messersmith just a hair behind, but Chance has started 24 more games and pitched 340 more innings; in another year or two Weaver should be on this list. I also have Tanana and Lackey beating out Witt, Langston, and Washburn.
You might be surprised to know this, but of all Angels pitchers with at least 100 starts, Kelvim Escobar has the lowest Adjusted ERA (125), but his Angels career simply wasn't long enough to merit a place. Still, I'd probably put him in the top 10 starters - towards the end.
BULLPEN
Troy Percival
Francisco Rodriguez
Bryan Harvey
Scot Shields
Brendan Donnelly
Donnie Moore
The first four are easy but after that it gets tricky. I picked Donnelly because he's probably the second best non-closer in Angels history after Shields; when you look at the stats he's a clear choice for inclusion. After that there are any number of pitchers that you could pick; for me it came down to Moore, Oliver, and maybe Eichhorn. I picked Moore both because he was a good pitcher for a few years but also out of respect. |
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Your all time Angels lineup & pitching staff (roster)
