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| Angel Oracle - 6/15/2009 12:50 PM
And figuring the cosine of that.
LOL |
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| R. Munkee - 6/15/2009 12:33 PM How about hitters with an unusually high percentage of doinks and/or squibs? I've heard that at least one player owes more than 25% of his BA to such slop. |
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Location: My Own Private Idaho | mtangelsfan - 6/15/2009 12:54 PM ModernFaulkner - 6/15/2009 1:51 PM Angel Oracle - 6/15/2009 12:35 PM With seeing all of these acronyms, I have just one thing to say. Please pass the Advil...I have a headache. This is more like it. To everyone ignorantly stating BABIP is worthless, please notice that AO is not a fan of BABIP or presumably, other advanced statistical concepts, just like you! But instead of being pretentious by arbitrarily declaring the concept worthless, he instead implicitly states he doesn't care to pursue that level of knowledge and therefore doesn't have an opinion on the topic. A little life advice for certain posters - no one knows everything about everything. Consequently, although it may feel counterintuitive, you will come across as a smarter person in general if you just admit ignorance of things you are ignorant of. Thanks AO. Wow, life advice. Can't thank you enough. I have really seen the error of my ways. Next time I will be certain to listen to the most pompous, arrogant, know-it-all in the room. grabs the diet cherry coke to go with her popcorn.... |
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| mtangelsfan - 6/15/2009 12:54 PM
ModernFaulkner - 6/15/2009 1:51 PM Angel Oracle - 6/15/2009 12:35 PM With seeing all of these acronyms, I have just one thing to say. Please pass the Advil...I have a headache. This is more like it. To everyone ignorantly stating BABIP is worthless, please notice that AO is not a fan of BABIP or presumably, other advanced statistical concepts, just like you! But instead of being pretentious by arbitrarily declaring the concept worthless, he instead implicitly states he doesn't care to pursue that level of knowledge and therefore doesn't have an opinion on the topic. A little life advice for certain posters - no one knows everything about everything. Consequently, although it may feel counterintuitive, you will come across as a smarter person in general if you just admit ignorance of things you are ignorant of. Thanks AO. Wow, life advice. Can't thank you enough. I have really seen the error of my ways. Next time I will be certain to listen to the most pompous, arrogant, know-it-all in the room.
It's always good to check the PAKIA rating on fangraphs before you attempt to debate. So that you understand the rating, it's kind of like rating doucheyness but but different |
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| I just see that 5 things are critical for success, especially here.
1) clutch hitting
2) having enough XBHs so that it doesn't take a lot of singles to score runs
3) fielding at least decently to solidly
4) running the bases well
5) but not least of course, get solid pitching from the rotation AND the pen.
Some of the acronym categories might have some relevance, others might not, because those numbers can be arbitrary sometimes. And GMs are more and more looking to them.
But heaven help us if baseball becomes nothing but a numbers game. |
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| I'm pretty sure the only things that matter are 1) Grit 2) Clutch Hitting 3) Not striking out. You can add them all together and they = RBI's. |
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Big League Angels
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| BABIP and other stats aren't meant to be an answer for everything. They are just one tool you can use to assess a player's performance. Other tools include watching the player yourself, looking at the situations he's in, looking at his history, his strengths and weaknesses. Stats can tell you something that watching a game, cannot, because they aggregate information. On the other hand stats can also be abused and interpreted wrongly, something that watching games can correct. You need both to make a full evaluation of a player or a situation. Being completely ignorant of stats or anti-intellectual means you are simply handicapping yourself of using information that can benefit your assessments. You are doing it to your own detriment |
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Orem Owlz
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BABIP in it's current formula for hitting is pretty much useless without using multiple modifiers to filter out the weakness of the theorey. It is too crude in itself to have any meaning in discussions of players tendencies or abilities.
Sure there are some modifiers to take into account,but the mere necessity of modifiers doesn't make the stat meaningless. Here is an old blog post on this topic (modifiers) by someone more informed than I am. It brings more to this element of the discussion than anything I'd be able to type up real quick:
http://danagonistes.blogspot.com/2005/03/dips-for-hitters.html
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Location: My Own Private Idaho | Angel Oracle - 6/15/2009 12:58 PM But heaven help us if baseball becomes nothing but a numbers game. THIS |
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| ModernFaulkner - 6/15/2009 1:06 PM
BABIP in it's current formula for hitting is pretty much useless without using multiple modifiers to filter out the weakness of the theorey. It is too crude in itself to have any meaning in discussions of players tendencies or abilities.
Sure there are some modifiers to take into account,but the mere necessity of modifiers doesn't make the stat meaningless. Here is an old blog post on this topic (modifiers ) by someone more informed than I am. It brings more to this element of the discussion than anything I'd be able to type up real quick:
http://danagonistes.blogspot.com/2005/03/dips-for-hitters.html
You want me to read? Come on dude! I got practice!
(You think you could do my homework for me?) |
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All-Star
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| AngelsLakersFan - 6/15/2009 12:54 PM
josquin - 6/15/2009 12:49 PM
Tomorrow's Stat thread will be on RC/27.
I'm looking forward to the VORP discussion.
What is VORP: very odd running plays? - sounds like a stat the Angels will exceed in. |
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| I just roll my eyes at these "discussions" now. |
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| OffThaTop - 6/15/2009 2:04 PM BABIP and other stats aren't meant to be an answer for everything. They are just one tool you can use to assess a player's performance. Other tools include watching the player yourself, looking at the situations he's in, looking at his history, his strengths and weaknesses. Stats can tell you something that watching a game, cannot, because they aggregate information. On the other hand stats can also be abused and interpreted wrongly, something that watching games can correct. You need both to make a full evaluation of a player or a situation. Being completely ignorant of stats or anti-intellectual means you are simply handicapping yourself of using information that can benefit your assessments. You are doing it to your own detriment I agree basically agree with this, however nobody is saying you should just look at the game and ignore stats. |
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Big League Angels
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| mtangelsfan - 6/15/2009 1:16 PM
OffThaTop - 6/15/2009 2:04 PM BABIP and other stats aren't meant to be an answer for everything. They are just one tool you can use to assess a player's performance. Other tools include watching the player yourself, looking at the situations he's in, looking at his history, his strengths and weaknesses. Stats can tell you something that watching a game, cannot, because they aggregate information. On the other hand stats can also be abused and interpreted wrongly, something that watching games can correct. You need both to make a full evaluation of a player or a situation. Being completely ignorant of stats or anti-intellectual means you are simply handicapping yourself of using information that can benefit your assessments. You are doing it to your own detriment I agree basically agree with this, however nobody is saying you should just look at the game and ignore stats.
What are they saying then?
Very often when I see people here, for example, demean a stat like UZR, they go on to cite ANOTHER stat like fielding percentage or errors as if those are more accurate. Sounds to me people are selective and just want to use "stats" they like rather than stats that are fairly new and not as easy to grasp |
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Hall of Fame
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| Dutton and Bendix from the Hardball Times think they can fix the problems with BABIP as a stat by adding in 12 different modifiers. To predict players tendencies and determine who is lucky (contract year) and unlucky (signed for big bucks and doesn't give a crap anymore) they recalculate BABIP then rationalize when Ichiro and Kendrick spoiled their theory. Usually when you claim to have a theory that works like measuring cubic feet (length × width × height) it works for every time you enter the numbers correctly and doesn't spit out answers that have you ordering 3 cubic feet too little to finish the driveway. I guess baseball statisticians don't mind potholes and rationalize that birds need to drink. Welcome to the BABIP Highway to sabermetric paradise. 
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Hall of Fame
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| ModernFaulkner - 6/15/2009 1:06 PM BABIP in it's current formula for hitting is pretty much useless without using multiple modifiers to filter out the weakness of the theorey. It is too crude in itself to have any meaning in discussions of players tendencies or abilities. Sure there are some modifiers to take into account,but the mere necessity of modifiers doesn't make the stat meaningless. Here is an old blog post on this topic (modifiers ) by someone more informed than I am. It brings more to this element of the discussion than anything I'd be able to type up real quick: http://danagonistes.blogspot.com/2005/03/dips-for-hitters.html http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/batters-and-babip/ |
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Location: Along the mother road. | Blarg - 6/15/2009 1:20 PM Dutton and Bendix from the Hardball Times think they can fix the problems with BABIP as a stat by adding in 12 different modifiers.
That's not fixing. That's taking a two story house and turning it into a 60 story Vegas casino.
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| Blarg - 6/15/2009 12:55 PM R. Munkee - 6/15/2009 12:33 PM How about hitters with an unusually high percentage of doinks and/or squibs? I've heard that at least one player owes more than 25% of his BA to such slop. Amazingly enough Munkee, BABIP for factoring in hitting skills truly rewards doinksters. It revolves more around ground ball and line drive hitters with speed and divorces itself from fly balls and most importantly the home run. It throws slugging pervcentage wieghting in the trash. That is why Figgins career BABIP is .376 while Vlad and his stupid home run and rbi totals over the years scores a measly .319. AHA! After lo these many months! VINDICATION! I KNEW it! Thanks Blarg! |
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Hall of Fame
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| Vindication for what? Albert Pujols has a career BABIP of .317. That's right, one of the premiere hitters of this decade and according to BABIP he is of less value offensive than Figgins and on a par with Quinlan that holds a career .316 BABIP. Can you understand just how worthless this metric is? Your boy Napoli is a career .290 BABIP so maybe he needs to learn how to doink as well. |
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All-Star
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| Wow. I wish some people would know what BABIP stands for and what it is intended to show before saying this kind of stuff. BABIP = batting average on balls in play (not counting HRs, which are sure hits) . BABIP doesn't measure offensive value. |
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| We know. It measures luck. |
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Hall of Fame
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| Fan Strong - 6/15/2009 2:37 PM
Wow. I wish some people would know what BABIP stands for and what it is intended to show before saying this kind of stuff. BABIP = batting average on balls in play (not counting HRs, which are sure hits) . BABIP doesn't measure anything of value.
FIXED |
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| Wait? BABIP doesn't count HRs ?
You can't be serious |
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| You truly are a numbnutz to think this discussion has gone on this long without anyone knowing what the acronym stands for. Equally as dense not to have read where everyone has discussed how it was first presented as a pitching metric but was presented towards hitters stats as well and both uses are ineffective. But hey, if you think it makes you smarter than the rest of us to present statistical evaluations based on flawed theories, keep on trucking.
Edited by Blarg 2009-06-15 2:46 PM
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Location: Along the mother road. | IEBRUIN - 6/15/2009 2:41 PM We know. It measures luck. That's what 50K (okay, 15 not counting inflation) of UCLA education gets ya.
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| IEBRUIN - 6/15/2009 2:43 PM Wait? BABIP doesn't count HRs ? You can't be serious Why do you think in the world of BABIP Quinlin and Vlad are equals? |
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All-Star
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| For hitters, it's just intended to show what a hitter's batting average is when he puts the ball in play. HRs aren't counted, which is why those big time HR hitters don't usually have a high BABIP. Barry Bonds' career BABIP is .288, yet he is one of the greatest hitters of all time. He had some of the best offensive seasons of all time. His BABIP isn't high because a good portion of his hits are HRs. |
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| HRs don't count. LOL !
I guess ground-rule doubles don't either, correct? |
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| Fan Strong - 6/15/2009 2:46 PM
For hitters, it's just intended to show what a hitter's batting average is when he puts the ball in play. HRs aren't counted, which is why those big time HR hitters don't usually have a high BABIP. Barry Bonds' career BABIP is .288, yet he is one of the greatest hitters of all time. He had some of the best offensive seasons of all time. His BABIP isn't high because a good portion of his hits are HRs.
And this is valuable to know why exactly? |
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| You're the one saying that according to BABIP, Pujols doesn't have the same offensive value as Q. In other words, you have no clue what BABIP is or how it's intended to be used or what it is even about. You're misusing it.
BABIP doesn't measure offensive value. So, saying that Pujols is less of a hitter than a certain player because Pujols' BABIP is lower is just ... |
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| Yeah, LT. Don't u know it's intended to measure luck ? |
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| IEBRUIN - 6/15/2009 2:48 PM
HRs don't count. LOL !
I guess ground-rule doubles don't either, correct?
Well, I didn't invent the thing. The reason HRs aren't counted is because they're viewed as sure hits. |
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| Fan Strong - 6/15/2009 2:51 PM IEBRUIN - 6/15/2009 2:48 PM HRs don't count. LOL ! I guess ground-rule doubles don't either, correct? Well, I didn't invent the thing. The reason HRs aren't counted is because they're viewed as sure hits. Torii would argue that point |
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| That's viewed as a long out. ;) |
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| So a line drive down the line that bounces a foot from the wall doesn't count either? |
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BABIP....?????
